is there or is there not...

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Re: is there or is there not...

#16

Post by sarge » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:16 am

First, God's not at fault here, the Human who does the harm is.

God gave us Free Will because He wanted us to make the choice between Good and Evil ourselves.

If He were to "not stand by" while humans do Evil things, that would mean that He would have to control each and every human on the planet, competely, irrevocably, in every area of life.

He'd have to turn us all into robots, controlling all aspects of our existence. We'd be less than dogs, lower than bugs.

Instead, he created us to make all the moral decisions that we make, and to suffer all consequences of those decisions. He created us to be free thinking, free acting creatures.

Second, God tells us that there is an existence beyond this one, and that this life is preparation for the next one. We spend 9 months in the womb, 70 years walking the planet, and eternity with God. That next existence will be free from evil, pain, hate, and suffering. Compared to 70 years on the planet, 9 months is inconsequential. Compared to eternity, 70 years is infinetly so.


You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#17

Post by GregD » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:53 am

sarge wrote: God gave us Free Will because ...

Second, God tells us that ...
How is one to verify that these assertions are true?

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Re: is there or is there not...

#18

Post by sarge » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:02 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote: God gave us Free Will because ...

Second, God tells us that ...
How is one to verify that these assertions are true?
Faith.

Its a recognized field of learning, study, knowledge, and interpretation and has been for thousands of years. You can get Doctoral degrees in the subject.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#19

Post by Fastmatt » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:23 pm

I understand the claim of freewill and that "GOD" is not making the evil act it is the human character and I can even understand the nonintervention idea sorta. But I just can't help but think at some point some evils are too much I just my opinion but I don't see a god like creature washing his hands of all evil deeds I the name of freewill and on the other hand performing healing miracles on the totally undesearving. I don't think it can go both ways. Either he does interfere and it's not all free will which means a miracle intervention is possible or it's totally freewill and he does not perform but allows humans to do the most evils uninhibited. Again I'm back to that type of individual will get no worship From me. I've also been perplexed and admittedly there maybe religions out there that don't believe this way but, how am I a person who has sinned but overall led a good charitable life treat others well etc denied enterence to heaven simply based on that I'm a non believer and on the flip side another person who has been a real burden on society and commits terrible acts "finds God" repents even if it is truely remorseful and is then placed into heaven that seems way off to me. It makes it seem on face value that this God places his demand to be worshiped ahead of any and all common sence when making judgements. :?:

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Re: is there or is there not...

#20

Post by GregD » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:41 pm

sarge wrote: Faith.

Its a recognized field of learning, study, knowledge, and interpretation and has been for thousands of years. You can get Doctoral degrees in the subject.
Thanks, but no thanks. Human failings are a challenge for the process of science (as discussed on the other thread) but they infect this faith stuff with no impediment whatsoever. Comparing the progression of science over the past several hundred years to the progression of faith over "thousands of years" I will happily choose the former over the latter.

YMMV

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Re: is there or is there not...

#21

Post by sarge » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:43 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote: Faith.

Its a recognized field of learning, study, knowledge, and interpretation and has been for thousands of years. You can get Doctoral degrees in the subject.
Thanks, but no thanks. Human failings are a challenge for the process of science (as discussed on the other thread) but they infect this faith stuff with no impediment whatsoever. Comparing the progression of science over the past several hundred years to the progression of faith over "thousands of years" I will happily choose the former over the latter.

YMMV

Much the same could be said about Philosophy, Art, and Literature, yet most educated and intellectual people feel that without a familiarity with them, a man is incompletely educated.

IOW--

You're not stupid if you believe in God.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#22

Post by Fastmatt » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:35 pm

I agree that familiarity with arts,litature and many other things make for well rounded knowledge .and I would nvr insinuate that believers are stupid. Just a diff view nothing more or less :)

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Re: is there or is there not...

#23

Post by sarge » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:10 pm

Fastmatt wrote:I understand the claim of freewill and that "GOD" is not making the evil act it is the human character and I can even understand the nonintervention idea sorta. But I just can't help but think at some point some evils are too much I just my opinion but I don't see a god like creature washing his hands of all evil deeds I the name of freewill and on the other hand performing healing miracles on the totally undesearving. I don't think it can go both ways. Either he does interfere and it's not all free will which means a miracle intervention is possible or it's totally freewill and he does not perform but allows humans to do the most evils uninhibited. Again I'm back to that type of individual will get no worship From me. I've also been perplexed and admittedly there maybe religions out there that don't believe this way but, how am I a person who has sinned but overall led a good charitable life treat others well etc denied enterence to heaven simply based on that I'm a non believer and on the flip side another person who has been a real burden on society and commits terrible acts "finds God" repents even if it is truely remorseful and is then placed into heaven that seems way off to me. It makes it seem on face value that this God places his demand to be worshiped ahead of any and all common sence when making judgements. :?:
If men create the evil deeds, why should God take any ownership of that?

As to you being a sinner, we all are. Every one of us. But God has already Forgiven those sins, and now all you need do is claim your Salvation.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#24

Post by BillyBob66 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:29 pm

Fastmatt wrote:...................... If there was a god (a vastly more intelligent being than us ) there is no doubt that this said God would have provided indisputable proof of existence that would stand the test of time.
In my opinion, He most certainly has, but YMMV of course. He has provided much evidence in the ridiculous amount of incredible so called coincidence in the creation and our continued existence, in the way that precision has come out of chaos, in the random statements in ancient scripture that modern science - and not until modern science- have proved to be correct. I listed several of these in a different thread of Gregg's. IMO, an ancient desert dweller like Moses or the others should NEVER get any of this right, but they got lot's of it right. Lucky rascals I guess? We did not even start to grasp the germ theory of disease - effectively spelled out in the laws that Moses says the "God who heals you" gave to him 3400 years ago- until the 1870s when it slowly becme accepted.. Of course, he did not call it "germ theory". The "God who heals you" simply said "do this (My commands) and I will keep you from the diseases of the Egyptians", and every single item is verified as the correct thing to do by modern germ theory of disease.

But most of all the Prophets and their predictions of the future, much of it being fulfilled precisely hundreds of years after given(some copies now available from the Dead Sea Scrolls from as much as 2400 years ago) and some apparently being fulfilled today. Yes, for me, He has provided abundant evidence. None of this really has anything to do with the required faith. However, I have found it to greatly strengthen my faith in the God of the Bible. As God says: "Come now, let us reason together".

Fastmatt wrote: As if you wish to have yourself followed or at least your teachings no one can't dispute it would be much more effective in mass if there was no question of existence. To my original statement if there was I would not worship by no means does that mean I would not live a good life and treat others well etc. what I mean is I bend no knee for any man or God I will not "worship" I find it hard to believe that a god "a teacher" a "guide" would want or desire his or her creations to literally worship them. I also will not worship any being that is as Injust as what we know as God.NOT only can I not forgive all people for all actions I certainly cannot worship a being that can for example :I cannot forgive child molesters nor do I expect "God" to. I cannot worship one who would except that into thier kingdom. If a god was to do so we clearly are at odds. I find it outlandish to think that an individual molests children ,repents ,and then eventually shares the kingdom of God with the victim. I find that intolerable. This is just one example that comes to mind how "God" and myself would not be on the same page. I also find it fairly easy to put holes in some of the more popular bible stories. Water into wine. As if this was supernatural many people in those days made wine it was common place. I do it myself , I'm certainly not Devine. Idk i have a ton of examples many much better than my above they would just be very long winded. With that being said I unlike some nonbelievers have no problem whatsoever with religion or those who believe and exercise thier right and belief. I respect the fact that each person is entitled to thier opinion and if being a believer helps somebody find peace or live a better life not only for themselves but others I can't find any fault with that.
Well then, none of what I said above matters at all, does it, even if you could be convinced it was correct? Because even if someone could convince you that the God of the Bible existed and created you and everything else, you already reject Him and refuse to to worship even one who created you(if He exists). Plus, You find Him morally inferior to yourself. He accepts repentant sinners who you will not, He accepts repentant, born again sinners who you have judged to have sins worse than yours. I will only add that the Bible makes it clear that a child molester(the unrepentant sexually immoral) or any # of other sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. The Gospel is not a "sin at will/get out of jail free" card. But, for a sinner who has changed, been born again and been washed in the blood of the One who committed no sin and who died for that sinner, well, it is a different story. Which does not mean that God will not discipline in this life those of us who fall back into sin, or that we can not lose reward in heaven if we live for ourselves rather than for Him. But since one who loved us paid the ultimate penalty for us, we do escape eternal punishment. But justice had to be done, someone had to pay the price.

But I'm sure I sound like gibberish to you, so I'll stop here, and I'll just say(hopefully you don't mind) "Go bless you" and I hope the best for you! Thanks for sharing your view point with us! I have found the posts here very interesting whether from believer or non-believer.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: is there or is there not...

#25

Post by sarge » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:54 am

Fastmatt wrote:
...................... If there was a god (a vastly more intelligent being than us ) there is no doubt that this said God would have provided indisputable proof of existence that would stand the test of time.
Logic dictates that if God created the Universe, then He existed both before the Universe did, and He exists outside of it. Therefore, any evidence he might have left behind would be different from that which would be left behind by creatures who live within it. Searcing for indisputable evidence of the sort that would convince us (because we live within this Universe) is illogical.

If you are in Dallas for breakfast, and New York City for supper, you've left no detectable evidence behind you in the atmosphere that you flew through in order to be in time to cut your steak. If challenged by someone to prove that you did not get there by means of transporter beam, you would be unable to provide any actual, physical evidence that you personally existed high in the atmosphere. They could claim that any evidence you come up with is misunderstood or the result of a mass conspiracy, dementia, or ignorant belief in a system. You could only point to the fact that you had chorizo in Dallas that morning and steak in NYC that night, and allow people to make their own conclusions. It would be at this point that some folks in at the dinner party would accuse you of lying the whole time and that you only concocted this story about visiting from Dallas so that you could get a free steak courtesy of the host. This is what you are asking of God.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#26

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:31 pm

sarge wrote:
Fastmatt wrote:
...................... If there was a god (a vastly more intelligent being than us ) there is no doubt that this said God would have provided indisputable proof of existence that would stand the test of time.
Logic dictates that if God created the Universe, then He existed both before the Universe did, and He exists outside of it. Therefore, any evidence he might have left behind would be different from that which would be left behind by creatures who live within it. Searcing for indisputable evidence of the sort that would convince us (because we live within this Universe) is illogical.

If you are in Dallas for breakfast, and New York City for supper, you've left no detectable evidence behind you in the atmosphere that you flew through in order to be in time to cut your steak. If challenged by someone to prove that you did not get there by means of transporter beam, you would be unable to provide any actual, physical evidence that you personally existed high in the atmosphere. They could claim that any evidence you come up with is misunderstood or the result of a mass conspiracy, dementia, or ignorant belief in a system. You could only point to the fact that you had chorizo in Dallas that morning and steak in NYC that night, and allow people to make their own conclusions. It would be at this point that some folks in at the dinner party would accuse you of lying the whole time and that you only concocted this story about visiting from Dallas so that you could get a free steak courtesy of the host. This is what you are asking of God.
Plus, so many people so often forget: if there actually is an all powerful God who created- for His own reasons- the universe and all of the living creatures apparently only here on earth(far as we know so far anyway), then just what is it He owes us? Does He owe us an explanation? Does He owe us indisputable evidence(according to our standards of what is acceptable) of His existence, and that His explanatory Word which He has given us is correct?

If He does exist, He owes us nothing whatsoever, whether as a nation or as individuals or as planet earth/universe. We would be His creation for His purposes and pleasure. If the God of the Bible exists(and He most certainly does, seems to me), then the absolute miracle is that He did not simply discard and destroy sinful mankind and start all over. The miracle is that instead He provided a remedy for our sin, paid the penalty Himself for our sorry, sinful selves.
Jeremiah 18 (NIV)

18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’”

13 Therefore this is what the Lord says:

“Inquire among the nations:
Who has ever heard anything like this?
A most horrible thing has been done
by Virgin Israel. ..............................15
Yet my people have forgotten me;
they burn incense to worthless idols,
which made them stumble in their ways,
in the ancient paths.
They made them walk in byways,
on roads not built up.
16
Their land will be an object of horror
and of lasting scorn;
all who pass by will be appalled
and will shake their heads.

17
Like a wind from the east,
I will scatter them before their enemies;
I will show them my back and not my face
in the day of their disaster.”
And man oh man, did he ever fulfill that promise! Just as, I believe, He is fulfilling the promises of restoration (once the punishment is complete) today. But I digress, first a little more about what God owes us, this time from the NT quoting Jeremiah:
Romans 9:
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?................
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: is there or is there not...

#27

Post by Scott » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:20 pm

I am a believer. I classify myself as Christian, but a little different in I don't believe in a burning hell. I believe God loves us, wants us to learn and grow. As Sarge said, we have freedom of choice. I believe there will be an accounting of how our intentions matched up with our actions, and only God knows our heart. I believe that God intervenes mostly by promptings, thoughts coming to us, etc. He gives a nudge, then we must act. After this life, I believe we all (with a few exceptions of truly evil people) will receive some measure of happiness and Glory. I also believe we can have happiness now. I don't live my life in fear of how God is going to punish me. I live it trying to be the best person I can, and believing God WANTS me to be happy, not guilty. Remorse for prior errors leads to change of heart and action which leads to happiness. The timeline Sarge gave fits well, this life is a small portion of the entire existence, and after this life we will continue to learn and grow. Not just playing harps on a cloud.

Life is hard. People can be mean. Business success and spiritual success are often at odds. I think you can have both, as long as you are the same person at work and at home. The phrase 'its just business' can be fatal to spirituality.

I believe we choose to believe. Believers can point to 'evidence' of a God. Non-believers can point to 'evidence' there is Not a God. Neither can prove the other wrong 100%. Neither will KNOW until we die. Well, I guess we will only 'know' after we die in the case that there really is a God. otherwise we will just cease to exist, then it does not matter.

Religion and churches can be God's worst enemy, or His greatest support, and often it is both at the same time.

To the OP question of do we care about this planet after we are gone. I have always found it interesting (speaking in generalities) that believers focus more on the soul and after life, and non-believers focus more on sustaining the planet when they are gone. This position I find curious, because if I did not feel there was a higher purpose to this life, I don't think I would really care about saving the planet. (but I do, so I do) There would be no right or wrong, good or evil in my mind, so the thought of perpetuating it at personal sacrifice would seem illogical to me. Under that thought, if a species went extinct, life would change, but why would I care as long as I have food, water, etc? As I stated in my post on the other thread about evolution, for me - God gives life meaning, science explains how it works. I like both. I reject the idea that I have to choose one. With Science there is no such thing as good and bad, only cause and effect. There is no judgement or humanity connected to science. Things just exist. The good-bad, right-wrong, appreciation of ________, caring, charity, exist outside science.

At least that's how I see it.
Texas sucede? Y'all are lucky we don't invade!

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Re: is there or is there not...

#28

Post by sarge » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:22 pm

Plus, so many people so often forget: if there actually is an all powerful God who created- for His own reasons- the universe and all of the living creatures apparently only here on earth(far as we know so far anyway), then just what is it He owes us? Does He owe us an explanation? Does He owe us indisputable evidence(according to our standards of what is acceptable) of His existence, and that His explanatory Word which He has given us is correct?
I have seen the question asked this way:

"What could you or I ever do that would put the Creator of the Universe in our debt? What could we do that would result in him owing us anything?"

Yet, if you beleive that He created the Universe, you come to the realization that this Universe is a gift to us. Nothing is really asked of us other than that we believe. God actually asks less of us than we ask of God, and we ask for that after He's given us everything.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#29

Post by Fastmatt » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:06 pm

BillyBob66 wrote:
Fastmatt wrote:...................... If there was a god (a vastly more intelligent being than us ) there is no doubt that this said God would have provided indisputable proof of existence that would stand the test of time.
In my opinion, He most certainly has, but YMMV of course. He has provided much evidence in the ridiculous amount of incredible so called coincidence in the creation and our continued existence, in the way that precision has come out of chaos, in the random statements in ancient scripture that modern science - and not until modern science- have proved to be correct. I listed several of these in a different thread of Gregg's. IMO, an ancient desert dweller like Moses or the others should NEVER get any of this right, but they got lot's of it right. Lucky rascals I guess? We did not even start to grasp the germ theory of disease - effectively spelled out in the laws that Moses says the "God who heals you" gave to him 3400 years ago- until the 1870s when it slowly becme accepted.. Of course, he did not call it "germ theory". The "God who heals you" simply said "do this (My commands) and I will keep you from the diseases of the Egyptians", and every single item is verified as the correct thing to do by modern germ theory of disease.

But most of all the Prophets and their predictions of the future, much of it being fulfilled precisely hundreds of years after given(some copies now available from the Dead Sea Scrolls from as much as 2400 years ago) and some apparently being fulfilled today. Yes, for me, He has provided abundant evidence. None of this really has anything to do with the required faith. However, I have found it to greatly strengthen my faith in the God of the Bible. As God says: "Come now, let us reason together".

Fastmatt wrote: As if you wish to have yourself followed or at least your teachings no one can't dispute it would be much more effective in mass if there was no question of existence. To my original statement if there was I would not worship by no means does that mean I would not live a good life and treat others well etc. what I mean is I bend no knee for any man or God I will not "worship" I find it hard to believe that a god "a teacher" a "guide" would want or desire his or her creations to literally worship them. I also will not worship any being that is as Injust as what we know as God.NOT only can I not forgive all people for all actions I certainly cannot worship a being that can for example :I cannot forgive child molesters nor do I expect "God" to. I cannot worship one who would except that into thier kingdom. If a god was to do so we clearly are at odds. I find it outlandish to think that an individual molests children ,repents ,and then eventually shares the kingdom of God with the victim. I find that intolerable. This is just one example that comes to mind how "God" and myself would not be on the same page. I also find it fairly easy to put holes in some of the more popular bible stories. Water into wine. As if this was supernatural many people in those days made wine it was common place. I do it myself , I'm certainly not Devine. Idk i have a ton of examples many much better than my above they would just be very long winded. With that being said I unlike some nonbelievers have no problem whatsoever with religion or those who believe and exercise thier right and belief. I respect the fact that each person is entitled to thier opinion and if being a believer helps somebody find peace or live a better life not only for themselves but others I can't find any fault with that.
Well then, none of what I said above matters at all, does it, even if you could be convinced it was correct? Because even if someone could convince you that the God of the Bible existed and created you and everything else, you already reject Him and refuse to to worship even one who created you(if He exists). Plus, You find Him morally inferior to yourself. He accepts repentant sinners who you will not, He accepts repentant, born again sinners who you have judged to have sins worse than yours. I will only add that the Bible makes it clear that a child molester(the unrepentant sexually immoral) or any # of other sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. The Gospel is not a "sin at will/get out of jail free" card. But, for a sinner who has changed, been born again and been washed in the blood of the One who committed no sin and who died for that sinner, well, it is a different story. Which does not mean that God will not discipline in this life those of us who fall back into sin, or that we can not lose reward in heaven if we live for ourselves rather than for Him. But since one who loved us paid the ultimate penalty for us, we do escape eternal punishment. But justice had to be done, someone had to pay the price.

But I'm sure I sound like gibberish to you, so I'll stop here, and I'll just say(hopefully you don't mind) "Go bless you" and I hope the best for you! Thanks for sharing your view point with us! I have found the posts here very interesting whether from believer or non-believer.
You do not sound like gibberish to me. I actually like honest sound rebuttals even if they are in opposition to my own thoughts. And no I don't mind you saying God bless me not in the slightest. As I also wish you the best .i guess the one thing I'd like guys to take away from my posts is yes I have a different opinion BUT not all of us non believers are religion haters nor do we want to live a life free of anyone who does believe and I certainly don't want to silence them. There are many of us who actually support freedom of religion even if it's not for us. As a matter of fact it actually upsets me when individuals (non believers) try to silence a believer I understand that this nation was born a Christian nation and so it shall be with no opposition from me. :D

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Re: is there or is there not...

#30

Post by Fastmatt » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:22 pm

sarge wrote:
Plus, so many people so often forget: if there actually is an all powerful God who created- for His own reasons- the universe and all of the living creatures apparently only here on earth(far as we know so far anyway), then just what is it He owes us? Does He owe us an explanation? Does He owe us indisputable evidence(according to our standards of what is acceptable) of His existence, and that His explanatory Word which He has given us is correct?
I have seen the question asked this way:

"What could you or I ever do that would put the Creator of the Universe in our debt? What could we do that would result in him owing us anything?"

Yet, if you beleive that He created the Universe, you come to the realization that this Universe is a gift to us. Nothing is really asked of us other than that we believe. God actually asks less of us than we ask of God, and we ask for that after He's given us everything.
I guess by indisputable evidence I meant on a smaller more frequently varifiable scale. For example (not the best but an example non the less) I have fast motorcycles and snowmobiles (thus the nickname fastmatt ) well every once and a while when enough people start to doubt it I'll show up at a race and prove it for all to see tangible real time indisputable evidence .i guess I feel like if I were a god and people in mass were having faith issues based on real time evidence I would show up every now and then for all to witness and perform an act that would leave no opposition to my existence. I know people are gonna say God doesn't need to prove it. And I guess that's why everybody can't agree cause if "he" would we could put this to bed for another thousand years.

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