is there or is there not...

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is there or is there not...

#1

Post by hikehunter » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:41 am

I was raised in a God fearing Christian house. I went thru the normal kiddie crap of life, the you are too skinny, you are too fat, you are too tall, etc....
I also went thru the "you got to go to church on sunday" " you are this, you are that"

I know the bible verses. I know the theology. I was raised with it.

I have heard the "good news" I went on the youth mission trips to help the fledgling churches in many diferent states and countries.

I felt good about myself someofthe time. I felt that I was helping to make a difference. I did the things that would give me the life I wished for everyone.

A life that would bring freedom from money. A life that would give me joy everyday.

As I got older I learned that the joy that structured religion offered was to be for when I was dead and gone from this earth.

When you are dead ...do you really care about this earth.....(weather you are a beliver or not...)

I have seen the social goodness and joy that being a part of a structured religion can bring.

However, the folks that are a part of a structered "religion" can give one great fear in the " dos and do nots"

I find myself at a point to where I must reach out to my fellow humans to get their honest feelings of is there a God and does he still work for me.

OR is there no god and I have be lead down the prime rose path ?


Is ther a being that has my soul and happiness foremost in his mind or have I just been blinded by the hundreds of years of faulse hope and dreams.

I want everyone to comment on this one! Everyone has a say in this. If you think that you do not have a dog in this fight you are WRONG.

Everyone has equil say here. I want to here your personal deep dark, bare your soul, feelings on this.... if you do not bare it all here you are cheating yourself.

I am in flux.....Part of me wants to belive and part of me says no way this is how it is. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?


I truly like this site and many of the people here. You guys are great folks and I enjoy the group hangs....I wish to do so.

I am in a werid place right now....please input....any and all are welcome.


There are wonders out there...now to go find them HFHS (Have Fun & Hike Safe)

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Re: is there or is there not...

#2

Post by sarge » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:46 am

There is a God.

I came to that determination through my belief in Evolution.

Yah, I know----but let me elaborate.

Evolution is a theory that organisms evolve kin order to adapt to thier environment through a process of "natural selection." Desirable and essential traits are kept, useless and undesirable traits are bred out. Some fish had flippers that allowed them to crawl on land and get better food, the flippers evolved into feet and legs, fins were discarded as they were now useless to navigation, gills changed to lungs, etc. It all makes perfect sense.

But.

There is a creature on this planet that does not adapt to its environment---it adapts the environment to suit itself. A bear crawls into a cave in winter to hibernate because the cave traps its body heat and its warm enough in the cave to survive. Man crawls into the cave, builds a wall and a dorr wt the entrance to block the wind and make it even better able to hold heat, then builds a fire, and pretty soon its warm enough in there that he's walking around naked. Now some might say that Man evolved into that state, and if it ended there that might be true. But Man does not stop at a warm cave. He paints pictures on the walls---pictures that are stylized depictions of the animals he hunts. The pictures are not perfect representations, they're not diagrams on how to better kill, nor are they maps to show the location---they are beautiful, stylized, depictions that are today recognized as art.

Man does not merely use his voice to mimic birds and animals to lure them close enough to kill---he uses it to sing songs that are not duplicated anywhere in Nature. Evolution explains Man's ability to do bird calls, it doesn't explain O Holy Night or Beethoven's 9th. Manis the only creature on earth that can both recognize and appreciate beauty, then has the ability to not only duplicate it, but to change its depiction stylistically.

In other words, Evolution doesn't explain Man's presence on the planet. If it were Evolution alone, we would still be dragging our knuckles on the ground eating raw pig meat out of the carcass, rather than making bacon and eggs with English Muffins and Strawberry jelly with coffee for breakfast. Evolution can explain how the elephant got its trunk, it can't explain architechture and art. It can explain why the goats live in the mountains, it can't explain why a man climbs the same mountian just to see the sunset.

So, the traits and abilities of all of the other living organisms can be explained by Evolution, except one. Logic would dictate that there are special conditions in the case of that one creature---conditions that go far beyond Evolution. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that Man came about through some outside intervention, and logic dictates that such intervention would have to be exceedingly powerful---so powerful that it has the capacity to change the Laws of Nature. I can think of only one entity so powerful: God.
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Re: is there or is there not...

#3

Post by GregD » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:15 pm

There is no god.

Everything a human “knows” about reality is no more than an approximation. Some approximations are more important than others. Those approximations that have emerged from a competent and informed application of the scientific method have proved to be very reliable. Those approximations resulting from other processes have proved to be quite unreliable.

But if you find that adopting a belief in God (or anything else for that matter) improves the quality of your life, the fact that your belief is inaccurate is quite beside the point. Do what works for you.

A key spiritual leader in my life was a black lab I picked up running loose by the side of the road. My wife is not (or was not then) a dog person. But she really took a liking to that dog. I wanted her to like me as much as she liked the dog. This was a happy dog, and she thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated everyday things. She was a fountain of positive karma. So I decided to adopt a happy, positive disposition, and to enjoy and appreciate everyday things. I don’t know if my wife likes me as much as she liked that dog, but I am very confident she likes being around me much more than she would had I not made this change. I also find that I experience happy feelings quite frequently. Life is good. It is not always easy, convenient, comfortable or worry-free, but it is good nevertheless. That worked for me; YMMV.

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Re: is there or is there not...

#4

Post by sarge » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:29 pm

Odd juxtaposition here.

The believer in God makes an argument based in largely in Science, while the Non-believer makes one based to some degree in Spirituality.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#5

Post by GoatHanger » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:03 pm

I don't know if God exists. No one does. That will, or, will not be answered when we die. Believing or not in the meantime is faith. Whether it be faith in the existence of God, or faith that there is no God. Neither can be proven, so a belief in either is faith. A hope that you are right.

I was not raised in church, but was exposed to christian values off and on. My childhood was not easy. My father left when I was 3 or 4. My mother worked multiple jobs to support me, so we were poor. I got into a lot of fights and other trouble. She partied, and I was taken away from her for a while. I lived with different family members off an on, but mostly with my grandparents. My grandmother died when I was twelve. My grandfather when I was seventeen. I see my mom occassionally, but we aren't close. I lived with her for a little bit when I was 21. My stepdad was an alcoholic, and I had to get a few stitches from having my face put through a wall because I told him not to hit my mom. Then he pulled a gun on me, and my mom took me to the hospital.

I've done a lot of drugs. I've hurt people. I've stolen. I've been to jail. I'm not bitter. I hope I'm not coming across that way.

The last time I was arrested, I was facing federal charges, that if convicted, could have resulted in 25 years in federal prison. I was scared. I'm tough, and have all the scars to prove it, but tough only gets you so far when you're 165lbs, 5'10". If convicted, I knew I'd have to kill someone right away so I wouldn't get passed around like a blow up doll. I didn't want to kill anyone. I was 25 years old. Alone in my house a few weeks before court, I said this prayer...

"God, if you're real, I'm sorry. I've made a mess of my life, and I don't know how I got here, or what to do. Please forgive me. I'm so sorry for wasting my life."

I said it with 100% honesty, and I meant every word. I cannot describe what happened to me next, because I wouldn't know what words to use. I wept for almost an hour though, with a feeling I'd never felt before... or since. That's all I'll say about that.

I did start going to church. I became very involved, and was an assistant youth leader for a while. I also went on mission trips. Eventually though, I began to see such hypocrisy among the people there. Then another church, same thing. Another, the same. I eventually stopped going.

Just recently I asked myself all kinds of serious questions about life. Its meaning. Its purpose. The kind of questions that you aren't sure you want to know the answers to. Instead of hiding from them, and distracting myself from them, I stared them right in the eye and watched them stare back at me. The conclusions that I came to depressed me for a bit, but have made me stronger in the long run. I will die. Everyone will. At some point, there will be no record of my existence. All of our lives are but a vapor. There for a moment, then poof. We're gone.

That sounds depressing at first, but it isn't really. It's a freedom. A freedom to look around and appreciate everything we see. There is so much beauty to behold. Nature is one of the most amazing things. Being a father to my son has brought (and continues to bring) the greatest joy I've known in life. My purpose is to love, and be kind. Do what I can to ensure that my son turns out to be a better man than I am. To make sure the people I love, know I love them. To try and keep in mind that each day is a gift, and I should be grateful.

I believe there is a God, when I look at all of the mathematical structure in nature. It isn't an accident. It's too perfect. My problem, is having a consistent relationship with him. I easily get jaded by all of the selfish, cruel, and disgusting human beings. I have a hard time turning the other cheek when someone does me wrong, especially since I go out of my way to be kind, generous, and helpful to others. To put it plainly, I don't take any shit. Pardon the language. At the same time, I'd risk my life to save someone else's.

I believe that my thoughts and actions push the holy spirit from me at times. Which sucks, because if I have any hope of being the purest man that I can, it's the spirit's presence that I need most. I fall. I get back up. Rinse. Repeat.

I probably haven't been helpful, so I apologize for that. You said to lay it all out though. I laid out some, but not all.

Ultimately, perception is reality. My hope is that I constantly perceive what is absolute truth.

Good luck in your search, hikehunter. You are not alone.

Oh, I believe in Jesus Christ by the way. And I'm 42 years old now. My name is Chris, and I'm an automation technician, and the electrical project leader at Crown Specialty Packaging. Life is good.
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Re: is there or is there not...

#6

Post by gmcpcs » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:14 pm

Wow.

Good responses, all of them.

I will attempt to share what is my belief. At this point in my 52 years of life, I have experienced many ups and downs. I see Christianity and belief in God, and I call that God the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, as a series of puzzles and mysteries. Just like that, the trinity? How can a God be three in one? I don't understand that, but I believe it. How can a Christian love the sinner, but hate the sin? I struggle with that. How can I have saving faith, without doing something for it? Faith without works is dead, but I am saved by faith not of works. How can I become free, but only when I submit to being a slave of Christ? All is vanity, says the most smartest man who ever lived. As the deer pants for the water, so my soul longs for Thee, said his dad.

I know when I held my newly born children, when I experience the beauty of this world, through nature, a sunset, through the creation, (Not evolution:) through seeing my fellow man selflessly serve others, and even knowing at those dark times of my life that my mother was on her knees praying for me, that is what I know as Christianity. I know that I have to believe in something (one) stronger than myself. I am worthless without Him, but with Him, I can do all things.

It sounds like I am quoting platitudes and catch phrases, don't it? Well, I have seen the laying on of hands, and watched another person's knee move back into place and saw him healed after he dislocated his knee during a volleyball game. I saw my father, who was only 68, die in 8 months from an aggressive, rare cancer, while my parent's friends (and me!) gathered round and constantly prayed for his healing. I know he is healed, as he is in heaven now.

I think that is what separates the atheists and agnostics from the believer. A trust, and a faith, in a life after this one, where all those perplexing problems are corrected, questions are answered. That we will have unlimited time to explore and experience the deepest love ever known. We can briefly and partially experience that love on this planet in this human form, and can live a fulfilling life and do good works without Christianity. But afterwards? That is the million dollar question. I would rather live my life a fool all this life on this planet, and live forever in heaven, than live life to the fullest, only to find out that was all there was.

But it does boil down to black and white, saved or not saved. I know that in my heart, and can trust in that beyond my tenacity for life on this planet. I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded, that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day.

May the peace of God, that passes all understanding, guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

Take it easy, and keep the good posts coming :-)
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Re: is there or is there not...

#7

Post by GoatHanger » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:42 pm

I really like this conversation, and hope others join in. Not just those that believe in God, but those that don't also.

Keep it honest, no matter your stance.

Hikehunter, thanks for starting the thread.

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Re: is there or is there not...

#8

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:41 pm

Good grief, how did I miss this one? Just finished reading it, great posts from one and all, believers and non-believers.
GoatHanger wrote: ..........................................................
"God, if you're real, I'm sorry. I've made a mess of my life, and I don't know how I got here, or what to do. Please forgive me. I'm so sorry for wasting my life."

I said it with 100% honesty, and I meant every word. I cannot describe what happened to me next, because I wouldn't know what words to use. I wept for almost an hour though, with a feeling I'd never felt before... or since. That's all I'll say about that.

I did start going to church. I became very involved, and was an assistant youth leader for a while. I also went on mission trips. Eventually though, I began to see such hypocrisy among the people there. Then another church, same thing. Another, the same. I eventually stopped going......................................................................
I believe that my thoughts and actions push the holy spirit from me at times. Which sucks, because if I have any hope of being the purest man that I can, it's the spirit's presence that I need most. I fall. I get back up. Rinse. Repeat.

I probably haven't been helpful, so I apologize for that. You said to lay it all out though. I laid out some, but not all.

Ultimately, perception is reality. My hope is that I constantly perceive what is absolute truth.

Good luck in your search, hikehunter. You are not alone.

Oh, I believe in Jesus Christ by the way. And I'm 42 years old now. My name is Chris, and I'm an automation technician, and the electrical project leader at Crown Specialty Packaging. Life is good.
Yeah, I know what you mean, Chris, Church folks can be a tough thing to take sometimes, I know. I have had my share of disappointment with folks in church, and I'm betting quite a few folks have been disappointed with me. I guess one of the problems with church is: it's full of sinners like me. I try and console myself with: "well, I wonder what they would be like if they were not Christians on a journey to become more like Christ?". (actually, I have to say the same thing about myself, for sure.)

But, really, should we expect a place full of sinners to be other than imperfect? Or as some call churches "hospitals for sinners". If Jesus said to his disciples:
Matthew 7:9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
If Jesus called them evil, then I guess I can not expect much better from my fellow Christians. Although the hope is we will all be growing more like Jesus each day. Plus, there are always a portion of unsaved folks, often professing to be saved, in any church. Still, despite all of the ways we too often fail the Lord, I have seen an awful lot of good also, and I bet you have also, Goathanger/Chris. Maybe on your mission trips?

Oh yes, the OP by Hikehunter: Yes, as much as I can know anything, there is a God. In fact, more specifically, the God of the Bible. The evidence is, for me, overwhelming, though I did not comprehend most of it until after I was saved. But He has not promised us a rose garden in this fallen, sinful world, if anyone was wondering. In fact, he has promised us that we will have tribulation in this world, and that if the world has hated Him first, since a servant is not above his master, it will hate us too. At least until He returns. Just look at the lives and deaths of all of His apostles. Not exactly a bed of Roses. Though God does sometimes answer prayer in the exact way that we ask, there is no prosperity Gospel. Or should I say it is a false gospel?

Good thread!

Bill
Last edited by BillyBob66 on Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is there or is there not...

#9

Post by GoatHanger » Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:55 am

BillyBob66 wrote: Yeah, I know what you mean, Chris, Church folks can be a tough thing to take sometimes, I know. I have had my share of disappointment with folks in church, and I'm betting quite a few folks have been disappointed with me. I guess one of the problems with church is: it's full of sinners like me. I try and console myself with: "well, I wonder what they would be like if they were not Christians on a journey to become more like Christ?". (actually, I have to say the same thing about myself, for sure.)

But, really, should we expect a place full of sinners to be other than imperfect? Or as some call churches "hospitals for sinners". If Jesus said to his disciples:
Matthew 7:9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
If Jesus called them evil, then I guess I can not expect much better from my fellow Christians. Although the hope is we will all be growing more like Jesus each day. Plus, there are always a portion of unsaved folks, often professing to be saved, in any church. Still, despite all of the ways we too often fail the Lord, I have seen an awful lot of good also, and I bet you have also, Goathanger/Chris. Maybe on your mission trips?

Bill
You're absolutely correct, Bill. I am a hypocrite myself on many occasions. I am indeed a chief sinner. I have no problems with people in general, my pet peeve is with the Westboro Baptist types. People that are unbelievers see them and their hatred toward others, and assume (wrongfully so) at times that the behavior they're seeing represents Christianity. I am ashamed and appalled at that kind of behavior and mentality, and never wish to be grouped with those people, but I feel like I am, to those who don't know any better. It's a shame. It's that kind of thing that I witnessed in a few "spirit filled" churches I attended. I left because I didn't/don't condone it, and don't want to be associated in any way with it. I don't consider them to be true Christians. I'm kind of a black sheep anyway, haha. I do my own thing, and try to be the best person I can, and filter out people and things in my life that I think will hinder me in my life's journey to be a good man. I extend kindness and grace, and am sometimes returned with malice. The chaff gets discarded. I walk away.

For perspective, I just recently in the last few months came back to a faith in Christ. I allowed the shortcomings of people to discourage me, which further developed into depression and nihilism. I did some very real soul searching recently, and it did (and always will in my opinion) lead me back to God. He is my compass. All of my good fruits are from him, and if I have any chance of being a good man, it is him that will help me accomplish that goal. I have a VERY long way to go.

But yes, I should be more forgiving of those who misrepresent. I am still on my way back to the level of humility that I used to have. I've got a lot of work ahead of me... but the burden is light ;)

I have seen so much good, so much compassion, and so much love in people as well. Just as you said. That is what gives me the hope to continue on my course, and to believe that most people are generally good, even if they choose to suppress that most of the time. Some of the kindest, caring, and humble people I've met have been homeless. Reminds me that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. That's another topic, but yes, I have seen an incredible amount of good, a humbling amount. I hope to be as kind and humble as some of the people I've met someday.

That said, though I've never met you in person, if you're posts on the internet are true to who you are, you are one of them. I highly respect you. I've read many of your posts here, and on the other site. You have a lot to be proud of.

Thank you for your opinions, and your spirit, Bill.

Chris
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Re: is there or is there not...

#10

Post by GregD » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:36 am

GoatHanger wrote:People that are unbelievers see them and their hatred toward others, and assume (wrongfully so) at times that the behavior they're seeing represents Christianity. I am ashamed and appalled at that kind of behavior and mentality, and never wish to be grouped with those people, but I feel like I am, to those who don't know any better.
Can you then empathize with Muslims that have similar feelings towards violent Islamic sects?

FWIW I am an unbeliever and it is clear to me that most Christians do not concur with the messages of the Westboro church.

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Re: RE: Re: is there or is there not...

#11

Post by GoatHanger » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:58 am

GregD wrote:
GoatHanger wrote:People that are unbelievers see them and their hatred toward others, and assume (wrongfully so) at times that the behavior they're seeing represents Christianity. I am ashamed and appalled at that kind of behavior and mentality, and never wish to be grouped with those people, but I feel like I am, to those who don't know any better.
Can you then empathize with Muslims that have similar feelings towards violent Islamic sects?

FWIW I am an unbeliever and it is clear to me that most Christians do not concur with the messages of the Westboro church.
Absolutely. I know a few Muslims, and they're all probably better people than I am. I have the utmost respect for any person that is honest and kind, regardless of belief system or lack thereof.

Extremists exist in all kinds of groups, unfortunately. I wish there were a way to control that, but there isn't. It's free will. All I can control is myself, and I even have problems with that. Ha!

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Re: is there or is there not...

#12

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:14 pm

Chris, thank you for your extremely kind words!
Bill
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Re: is there or is there not...

#13

Post by kev137 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:42 am

This is a very interesting post, and although I've stumbled upon it a bit late i feel a need to comment. For me there is a God. Now can i define or describe this supreme deity i choose to belive in? Nope. Do i feel a need to go to a church to speak to God? Nope. I feel really close to God when i am outdoors. When I'm surfing and waiting on waves i have some really deep conversations with the Lord. When I'm hiking or camping and the sounds of nature are all i can hear, that to me is the voice of God. There is nothing wrong with going to church, and there are times when I've found it comforting. Some people really need the rituals and pomp that come from church. Some people really need to step into a temple to be properly humbled by the presence of God, and some people need the fellowship and guidance that organized religion brings. I respect all of those things, no matter what name you give to God and what religion you chose to find God.

I also respect a person's right to not believe in God. If you choose to find comfort in science and analytical thought, then that's great for you. I will not argue that you are wrong. If disbelief in a supreme deity gives you comfort than that is what is best for you. As long as your personal belief (or disbelief ) system doesn't call for you to harm others i say more power to you. What others think or feel does not change what i feel.

I hesitate to call myself a Christian, not out of shame or lack of faith in Jesus, but because of my own personal shortcomings. So many times i see people who are not as Christ like as they should be declare themselves to be true Christians. I am not willing to sully the term by associating my imperfect self with it. I know i am flawed and do not want to stand as an example of what God wants his followers to be. I am seeking my own path ( as we all must do) and am afraid of leading others down a path that might not be the right one ( for them ). In the end i will be judged and i hope to be found worthy of grace.

So to answer the question is there or isn't there? In the end it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves. If someone truly believes in something ( or nothing ) they can not be swayed in their thinking. I read once a quote that said in effect, " reality is just God pretending to forget himself and then trying to find himself in our perceptions of him.".
" No sympathy for the devil. You buy the ticket, you take the ride", Hunter S. Thompson

Fastmatt
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Re: is there or is there not...

#14

Post by Fastmatt » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:07 am

I say there is no God by any name. And if there was I still would not worship. A lil back history I grew up in a Christian house my parents still attend church every week and do much volunteer work around the church. I went to catholic school from 7 , 10,11,12 grade this is where My journey from a believer to non believer started. As I sat in religion class i began to question what was being taught as fact this was not well received btw. And without dragging on and on it boiled down to " well we can't prove anything you just have to have faith" my thought was if I tell you I can run a 5 min mile it's my job to prove it not your job to disprove it. Just because I can't 100 percent disprove something doesn't mean it is true. I I the burden of truth falls upon the one making the claim. If there was a god (a vastly more intelligent being than us ) there is no doubt that this said God would have provided indisputable proof of existence that would stand the test of time. As if you wish to have yourself followed or at least your teachings no one can't dispute it would be much more effective in mass if there was no question of existence. To my original statement if there was I would not worship by no means does that mean I would not live a good life and treat others well etc. what I mean is I bend no knee for any man or God I will not "worship" I find it hard to believe that a god "a teacher" a "guide" would want or desire his or her creations to literally worship them. I also will not worship any being that is as Injust as what we know as God.NOT only can I not forgive all people for all actions I certainly cannot worship a being that can for example :I cannot forgive child molesters nor do I expect "God" to. I cannot worship one who would except that into thier kingdom. If a god was to do so we clearly are at odds. I find it outlandish to think that an individual molests children ,repents ,and then eventually shares the kingdom of God with the victim. I find that intolerable. This is just one example that comes to mind how "God" and myself would not be on the same page. I also find it fairly easy to put holes in some of the more popular bible stories. Water into wine. As if this was supernatural many people in those days made wine it was common place. I do it myself , I'm certainly not Devine. Idk i have a ton of examples many much better than my above they would just be very long winded. With that being said I unlike some nonbelievers have no problem whatsoever with religion or those who believe and exercise thier right and belief. I respect the fact that each person is entitled to thier opinion and if being a believer helps somebody find peace or live a better life not only for themselves but others I can't find any fault with that.

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Re: is there or is there not...

#15

Post by Fastmatt » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:25 am

A lil more blah blah. How could a god "a father" stand by and at minimum watch at most create a situation where an innocent child (free of sin) could suffer terribly painful and deabilitating circumstances suffering until they reach an untimely death? While a total scurge of a human being lives and prospers into old age and passes peacefully after leaving a wake of pain and suffering in thier wake as they traveled through life. I Catholic school that could t answer this either they said these things are not for us to understand and you must have faith. NOT TO UNDERSTAND ? Are we not worthy of a lil insight into this ? Is this a cruel joke? Why would I want to associate myself with a "God " that allows this and yet offers no insight (that I'm aware of) no sir no thank you Ill pass on the worship. But I do like this thread as it is giving me insight into others thoughts which I'm always open to at least to ponder. So thank you all for a forum to have this open conversation in without offence on either side of the arguement. :D

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