is there or is there not...

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sarge
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Re: is there or is there not...

#31

Post by sarge » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:56 pm

Fastmatt wrote:
sarge wrote:
Plus, so many people so often forget: if there actually is an all powerful God who created- for His own reasons- the universe and all of the living creatures apparently only here on earth(far as we know so far anyway), then just what is it He owes us? Does He owe us an explanation? Does He owe us indisputable evidence(according to our standards of what is acceptable) of His existence, and that His explanatory Word which He has given us is correct?
I have seen the question asked this way:

"What could you or I ever do that would put the Creator of the Universe in our debt? What could we do that would result in him owing us anything?"

Yet, if you beleive that He created the Universe, you come to the realization that this Universe is a gift to us. Nothing is really asked of us other than that we believe. God actually asks less of us than we ask of God, and we ask for that after He's given us everything.
I guess by indisputable evidence I meant on a smaller more frequently varifiable scale. For example (not the best but an example non the less) I have fast motorcycles and snowmobiles (thus the nickname fastmatt ) well every once and a while when enough people start to doubt it I'll show up at a race and prove it for all to see tangible real time indisputable evidence .i guess I feel like if I were a god and people in mass were having faith issues based on real time evidence I would show up every now and then for all to witness and perform an act that would leave no opposition to my existence. I know people are gonna say God doesn't need to prove it. And I guess that's why everybody can't agree cause if "he" would we could put this to bed for another thousand years.
I remember my Dad would take me out into the woods and I'd ask him why I couldn't see any animals. He told me it was because I needed to stay quiet, be still, and wait. Years went by, and I still didn't see any animals in the woods, except the occasional squirrel or chipmunk---but I saw those around the house, too, so they didn't count. Even as a middle schooler spending weeks at a time in the woods, I never saw anything. I became an adult, had less time to spend in the woods so when I got there, I took the time to rest and relax. I'd hike to some nice places to sit, quiet and still. That was when I saw the rabbits and then the deer. They were there all the time. All I had to do was take my Father's advice.


You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#32

Post by Fastmatt » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:35 pm

sarge wrote:
Fastmatt wrote:
sarge wrote:
I have seen the question asked this way:

"What could you or I ever do that would put the Creator of the Universe in our debt? What could we do that would result in him owing us anything?"

Yet, if you beleive that He created the Universe, you come to the realization that this Universe is a gift to us. Nothing is really asked of us other than that we believe. God actually asks less of us than we ask of God, and we ask for that after He's given us everything.
I guess by indisputable evidence I meant on a smaller more frequently varifiable scale. For example (not the best but an example non the less) I have fast motorcycles and snowmobiles (thus the nickname fastmatt ) well every once and a while when enough people start to doubt it I'll show up at a race and prove it for all to see tangible real time indisputable evidence .i guess I feel like if I were a god and people in mass were having faith issues based on real time evidence I would show up every now and then for all to witness and perform an act that would leave no opposition to my existence. I know people are gonna say God doesn't need to prove it. And I guess that's why everybody can't agree cause if "he" would we could put this to bed for another thousand years.
I remember my Dad would take me out into the woods and I'd ask him why I couldn't see any animals. He told me it was because I needed to stay quiet, be still, and wait. Years went by, and I still didn't see any animals in the woods, except the occasional squirrel or chipmunk---but I saw those around the house, too, so they didn't count. Even as a middle schooler spending weeks at a time in the woods, I never saw anything. I became an adult, had less time to spend in the woods so when I got there, I took the time to rest and relax. I'd hike to some nice places to sit, quiet and still. That was when I saw the rabbits and then the deer. They were there all the time. All I had to do was take my Father's advice.
I get your meaning and it's well put. Everybody has been great in this conversation(exactly the reason I decided to sign up) I've pondered these things you guys have said both new and things that parallel in the past.and recognize the wisdom in these statements and entertain the idea I may not be correct. But I think at this point in my life I just don't believe or maybe I am just stead fast in denial.and I guess it doesn't matter as even if it was proven to me I'm not in a place mentally that would allow me to bend a knee or worship. I just can't bring myself to submit to another being of any definition. I will add this my grandfather fought with the 102 ozarks at the battle of the bulge (received 2 Purple Hearts and a bronze star was Mia assumed Kia in Europe and later walked out of a makeshift hospital and back to the battle, he saw many many men killed (friends and general soldiers he also killed men it weighed heavy on him till his dying days ) the point of this is here is a man who I had great respect for before he died he told me "scortch" there are NO atheists in a foxhole think about that boy. And I have . When my grandmother recieved his Mia bag she nvr wavered she told me she knew God would not take that man later he walked out of that battle torn town. Is this Devine intervention or dumb luck? I know what they believed.

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Re: is there or is there not...

#33

Post by sarge » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:47 am

Fastmatt wrote: I get your meaning and it's well put. Everybody has been great in this conversation(exactly the reason I decided to sign up) I've pondered these things you guys have said both new and things that parallel in the past.and recognize the wisdom in these statements and entertain the idea I may not be correct. But I think at this point in my life I just don't believe or maybe I am just stead fast in denial.and I guess it doesn't matter as even if it was proven to me I'm not in a place mentally that would allow me to bend a knee or worship. I just can't bring myself to submit to another being of any definition. I will add this my grandfather fought with the 102 ozarks at the battle of the bulge (received 2 Purple Hearts and a bronze star was Mia assumed Kia in Europe and later walked out of a makeshift hospital and back to the battle, he saw many many men killed (friends and general soldiers he also killed men it weighed heavy on him till his dying days ) the point of this is here is a man who I had great respect for before he died he told me "scortch" there are NO atheists in a foxhole think about that boy. And I have . When my grandmother recieved his Mia bag she nvr wavered she told me she knew God would not take that man later he walked out of that battle torn town. Is this Devine intervention or dumb luck? I know what they believed.
Bit of a thread drift, but I'll just mention again that its the belief here that there are no subjects that cause "friction" and therefore should not be discussed. What causes "friction" is commenters who intentionally cause the "friction" so as to end the discussion of certain subjects, such as the military, guns, Faith, and politics. It is my belief that the principal reason they want to stop these conversations is because they are afraid that the conduct of the people holding the beliefs they disagree with, coupled with the facts and logic that they provide to support their beliefs, has the potential to change people's minds so they cause trouble whenever those subjects are discussed. They don't want people to think for themselves, they want to do your thinking for you, so they decide who gets to speak and those who don't.

There's a Faith parallel here. God wants you to make your own choices. He wants you to think freely, even if it might lead you away from Him. He could have chosen to render those with whom He disagrees speechless, to make our minds such that we cannot hear them speak, or prevent us from discussing or even considering non-belief. Its one of the reasons I'm a Christian.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: is there or is there not...

#34

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:38 pm

What Sarge said. I remain for freedom of speech, religion(or no religion), association and several other freedoms which seem to be going away in modern society. But I see no reason why- except for the one Sarge points out- why civilized people of good will can not have conversations regarding subjects about which they intensely disagree. Just as has been taking place so far at this forum, taking place without heavy handed moderation. Of course, human nature being what it is, sooner or later someone is going to start name calling. But, that is the act(if any) that needs to be dealt with. Rule #1: keep it civil. If that is accomplished very few other rules are needed in a free country.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: is there or is there not...

#35

Post by hikehunter » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:41 pm

I never thought this thread would yeild such a good debate. Thanks to those who have posted here. It is food for thought. Thanks folks.
HFHS (Have Fun & Hike Safe)
There are wonders out there...now to go find them HFHS (Have Fun & Hike Safe)

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Re: is there or is there not...

#36

Post by Polkster13 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:19 pm

I just wanted to add to something Sarge said about "friction" and people getting upset when having a debate about something they strongly believe in. We as a nation have been taught from an early age that winners are great and losers are, well losers. Even in sport competitions, most people never remember the teams that came in second, it is the winner that is crowned with all of the glory and honor and to loose is something to avoid at all costs. Therefore, in a debate, emotions start to run rampant when our beliefs are challenged as being "wrong" because that makes us a "loser". Being a "loser" is a slap in the face of our almighty ego that says we are always right and the other guy is aways wrong, unless they believe in the exact same things that I believe in. Even when people or nations take up a fight (be it violent as in war or nonviolent as in a protest), invariably I hear people say that God is on our side. Therefore our cause is just and right and we will prevail. Therefore we will be on the winning side.

Well, I am here to tell you that God is NOT on your side. If God is a supreme being that created the Universe and everything in it, including ever human being on this planet, then God doesn't NEED anything from us! He has truly created us for his pleasure.

But I also believe that this God is not like the Greek gods of old who were spiteful and mean spirited. From the Holy Bible, it says that before the creation of the world, Christ died for us. That means that before God created the Universe and everything in it. Before he created man and woman, He knew that man would sin and bring havoc and destruction into His perfect creation because He choose to give us free will He knew that there would be child molesters, murderers, idolaters, and wicked people of every ilk. But He also had a plan to redeem us by allowing his perfect Son to live on this earth as a man who was without sin, perfect in every way. He knew that the world would reject His son and crucify Him on a cross. But he allowed this to happen to be a payment for our sins and shortcomings, that through the life and death and resurrection of His son Jesus Christ, we that are imperfect from all of our sin are made perfect in the eyes of God, not by anything we did but what Christ did for us.

So who gets to have this salvation? What do we have to do to get it? Can it be earned? Can I do anything to deserve it? I like to use the analogy of a cruise ship trip to answer those questions. Analogy: I come to you and tell you that someone else has bought and paid for you a once in a lifetime, full expense paid permanent vacation on a luxury cruise ship. There is a room especially for you with your name on it. There is food galore that you do not need to reap or harvest. It is all prepared for you. All you have to do is accept the ticket (that has already been bought and paid for you) and by faith get on the ship. Faith is the action of accepting the ticket and then going to the ship and getting on. Faith is not realizing that there is a ship and talking to others about the ship. That is not faith. That is intellectual assent. Anyone can believe that there is a ship. It is the act of faith of stepping out and boarding the ship that gets you on board and not left behind on the shore while the ship sails away. Is your place still on the ship even though you didn't accept the ticket? Of course; your spot was paid for whether or not you accepted it. I know this is a crude analogy but I hope it is helpful for some to see what the difference is when it comes to Faith and Believing. There is also the other side of the coin where you have to realize you are a sinner and repent of your sins and confess you are a sinner and need Him to save you and be Lord of your life (because He paid for it with His life's blood).

Those people that call themselves Christians are not perfect nor will they ever be in this life as we are all sinners. It is very easy to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. It is quite another thing to accept Him as the Lord of your life. A lot of people want to be saved, but they don't want to follow Him and let Hm be the leader of our lives. You can't have one without the other. Jesus also said to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together. Again, that is where our ego gets in the way. We think we know better than God what is best for us. He also never told us how to worship (except for the "Sermon on the Mount" where he did give us an illustration of how we should pray). But he did warn us on how not to worship like the religious leaders did when He walked on this earth. There are many examples He gave that are listed in the first four books of the New Testament. He does want us to gather together to help one another and support each other. This way we become the hands and feet of Christ. I believe God allows bad things to happen so His people can rise up and show His love and mercy through His people by our actions. Are we perfect in this, by No means---but we still try to do our best by using His power.

How can you go outside and truly enjoy a sun filled, cloudless sky without also experiencing the dark storm clouds. The bible also teaches that he allows the rain to fall on the just and the unjust. Why does He allow this? I believe we will never know this profound mystery until this life is over. For me, I have to just accept it on Faith.

Do I have all of the answers. By no means! I am still learning each and every day. Am I perfect? Far from it! But like another posted, one of my favorite versus in the bible and is one of my favorite hymns while I was growing up is:

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able, to keep that which I have committed, unto Him against that day!

It is not my good deeds or lack of doing any terrible sin that gets me accepted into Heaven to be with God; it is my trust and faith in what the Son of God has done for me. It is accepting that ticket that bought and paid for by a terrible price that I get to be in heaven and spend an eternity at His table. It is what He has done for me that I have a place prepared for me with my name on it and all I have to do is accept it in faith. By admitting that I am a sinner and that I cannot save myself and by repenting of my sins and confessing that He is now the Savior and Lord of my life. By having the faith in Him that He will make me a new creature and now God the Father sees His Son's righteousness in me instead of the filthy rags of my righteousness. That is what will allow me to spend an eternity in Heaven with God.

But I also know that no matter what is said or done, there will be those who will reject this message of "Good News". And in so doing they will spend an eternity separated from their creator. For me that is almost too terrible a thought to comprehend. But if I say I believe in the bible then I have to believe in all of it. Not just the bits and pieces that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I also have to accept the harsh truth that there is a hell and that souls will go there (some of them people I love and are blood kin to me) for all eternity. I wish it could be otherwise, but I am not God and I didn't make the rules. He did.

Well enough of my ramblings. I started out this post wanting to talk about ego and the mentality we have of always wanting to be on the winning side no matter what the costs. I do believe this is what drives a lot of the emotions seen on the Internet these days in the different discussion forums.

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Re: is there or is there not...

#37

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:51 pm

Polkster, thanks for that superb explanation of your view. Which it so happens is pretty much how I see it. Thank goodness for The One who has done what I can not do for myself, who has paid the price for me.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: RE: is there or is there not...

#38

Post by hjon71 » Fri May 06, 2016 5:34 am


I find myself at a point to where I must reach out to my fellow humans to get their honest feelings of is there a God and does he still work for me.

OR is there no god and I have be lead down the prime rose path ?


Is ther a being that has my soul and happiness foremost in his mind or have I just been blinded by the hundreds of years of faulse hope and dreams.
I'm not sure I could answer this any better than C.S. Lewis does in Mere Christianity.
I could answer differently but not better. Read it. You can thank me later.


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