4 Big Bangs?

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BillyBob66
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4 Big Bangs?

#1

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:43 am

Hello guys and gals!

More than once, I have made the rather huge differences between man and all other species an argument for the truth of the Bible. I.E., I have said that it makes no sense that from the same original 1 celled organism that suddenly came to life from dead material, and that from the thousands or millions of species that came from that organism, evolving side by side for millions or billions of years, that only one creature would evolve that can express spiritual concerns, or write novels and music or come up with scientific equations to put a man on the moon almost 50 years ago, or perform heart transplants, has the power to at least potentially destroy life on earth or at least most species including his own, etc etc etc. You would expect/predict exactly that from what the Bible said thousands of years ago, but I say the theory of evolution instead predicts there should be a fair number of other creatures who share the gifts and abilities of humans. But that is not the case, is it?

But the below video (with transcript if you prefer) by a former atheist puts new light on the subject. He argues that there could not have been just one Big Bang, but 4 woud be required to explain what we observe. And the last one relates to my argument from above, but adds a new twist to it. I.E., where are the transitional forms(or even still existing other creatures) with some of mans prodigious abilities? As there are none that we know of, then mankind must have also appeared on the seen like a big bang. IOW, there was nothing like man, and suddenly, out of no where, there he ( plus a she for reproduction to be possible! ) was, building pyramids and writing and doing math, etc. Give the below a view, whether you agree or not, interesting food for thought!

https://www.prageru.com/courses/religio ... -arguments


Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: 4 Big Bangs?

#2

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:50 pm

This video does nothing more than "preach to the choir". It presents no evidence or argument to challenge anyone skeptical of theism.

As improbable as it may seem to have "4 big bangs", it is even more improbable that there exists some entity sufficiently powerful to have caused them. An entity that we have not otherwise observed. It is even more improbable that this entity bears any significant relationship with the god of the Bible.

His second two "big bangs" have much simpler explanations than "a creator". Humans are not the only human-like species in the fossil record. So evolution created not one but several human-like species. We are the ones that survived, but others were not so very different. Humans even interbred with Neanderthals. Characteristics such as self-awareness and art appreciation have significant evolutionary benefits for a species, like humans, that compete for survival by forming ever-larger cooperative groups. And it appears that there are at least rudimentary forms of these characteristics in other animals. I am unconvinced that these two are even "big bangs".

Edit: Even in the event that we observe something we do not understand, that is not evidence to suggest some all-powerful magical being. It just means we don't know.

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Re: 4 Big Bangs?

#3

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:42 pm

GregD wrote:This video does nothing more than "preach to the choir". It presents no evidence or argument to challenge anyone skeptical of theism.

As improbable as it may seem to have "4 big bangs", it is even more improbable that there exists some entity sufficiently powerful to have caused them. An entity that we have not otherwise observed. It is even more improbable that this entity bears any significant relationship with the god of the Bible.

His second two "big bangs" have much simpler explanations than "a creator". Humans are not the only human-like species in the fossil record. So evolution created not one but several human-like species. We are the ones that survived, but others were not so very different. Humans even interbred with Neanderthals. Characteristics such as self-awareness and art appreciation have significant evolutionary benefits for a species, like humans, that compete for survival by forming ever-larger cooperative groups. And it appears that there are at least rudimentary forms of these characteristics in other animals. I am unconvinced that these two are even "big bangs".

Edit: Even in the event that we observe something we do not understand, that is not evidence to suggest some all-powerful magical being. It just means we don't know.
So, are the Neanderthals for certain different species? How about blacks, whites and Asians? Definitely not for the later, but what about the former? If they say we interbred with them, how certain is it they are different species?
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_41
Off Topic
Defining a species

A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.

For example, these happy face spiders look different, but since they can interbreed, they are considered the same species: Theridion grallator..............................
Also, do we have any hard scientific evidence that there existed other species with the prodigious mental capabilities of man? Or at least fairly close so as to form one of those so called evolutionary stepping stones? Or does the creature known as mankind suddenly appear in a big bang type of event about the same time as the written record and buildings appear on the scene?

Even if you think you have some hard scientific evidence of these almost humans on the evolutionary path to human qualities, as you say, none survived. So we still have nothing we can observe ( like in science ) accept on one side mankind, on the other, everything else. I see no reason to just assume that there were other creatures in the past that evolved to be almost able- or at least had the ability if they had survived- to write a novel or symphony or travel in space.

I never quite get your "all-powerful magical being" comments, considering you believe that dead material just appeared out of nowhere, and then one day the dead material came to life, and then it worked it's way up to be you. That sounds down right magical. I certainly have never observed any such thing, have you? Do you know someone else who has? But, that is what you and many scientists believe, right? I don't see how a belief in an "all-powerful magical being" is really much more difficult. And considering a god would account for the apparent design we see all around us, in some ways it makes a lot more sense.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: 4 Big Bangs?

#4

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:49 pm

I am not well informed about Neanderthals. Here are two links:
http://www.livescience.com/28036-neande ... tives.html
http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2016/05/08 ... vs-humans/

Whether they are a variation of our species or a separate species is still apparently debated. It seems they were rather smart. They were also significantly different; far more so than current racial differences.

Assessments of intelligence and other characteristics are based on artifacts and other observations. They are not completely certain, but there is supporting data which is not as conclusive as observing a live specimen but is not completely assumed either.

I suspect life appeared out of non-life material by some process that we don't yet understand.
You believe there has always existed an all-powerful entity and it is described in the Bible.
The "magic" that I believe may be incredible, but what you believe is far, far, more incredible. Life is awesome, sure, but your god is very much more awesome, and consequently that much more improbable. And then there is the further improbability that the god that exists actually fits the description in your Bible. That is my logic. I understand this logic doesn't convince you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

As far as matter "magically" appearing: we fundamentally do not understand how light could possibly have the properties that it does; specifically that the speed of light in a vacuum is the same no matter the relative speed between the observer and the source of the light. This makes absolutely no sense. And yet it is true. This is one example that clearly proves that we have a limited understanding of the fundamentals of how the Universe works. So of course there are things about the Universe that are currently baffling to us. Things like what caused the big bang.

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Re: 4 Big Bangs?

#5

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:45 pm

GregD wrote:I am not well informed about Neanderthals. ..........
Me neither. Though I do know a few, but I'm not sure how they got here or if they are a different species. Then again, I have also known a few folks who claimed that I am a Neanderthal. Could be.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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