How much is enough and progressive income taxes

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#46

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:36 am

Taxes are imposed using the exact mechanism that enabled slavery: The Government wielding the threat of deprivation of Liberty or Property at the point of a gun. If you refuse to pay taxes, ultimately men with guns will come to your house, put you in jail, and take your property. If you harbored an escaped slave, men with guns came to your house, put you in jail, and took your property. There is no false equavalency here. Its the government using the threat of men with guns to enforce what they think is "good" at the moment.

The Government does nothing "good" without the threat of men with guns punishing you if you don't do the "good" the government wants you to do, or provide the government with the means to do that "good".

That, in a word, is immoral.
Image I have seen those on the left give all sorts of justifications for the event depicted in that picture.

All I see is the immorality inherent in a system that allows the government to send men with guns into the bedrooms of sleeping children because they want to do what's best for the child. Its pretty much the same with using the threat of men with guns if you don't do the "good" the government wants you to do.


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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#47

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:50 am

Scott wrote:I re-read the OP. I missed the last line about starting a new thread for discussing the govt spends too much money. For me, I can't separate how much they spend to how much, or who, they should take it from.

I don't see any system that will be good for everyone. I truly don't think the government stepping in to try to 'fix' the day to day money issues of people is a good thing. I don't think it is their job to create jobs. I think limited unemployment or welfare help is not a bad thing. But not to the degree it is a lifestyle for many.

sticking to the topic of what will benefit society best leads me back to a discussion of how much should be collected in the first place.

Going to the topic of assuming we will be paying something, is it best (not fair) for the Rich to carry a bigger load because they don't 'need' their extra money so it is less of a burden on them? As a not rich guy my answer should be yes. that would be best for me. In principle, I say no. It is not 'right', whatever right means. I believe in individual right above society rights. With some concessions of course for living in a society. what those are is a gray line. Often what is good for society is bad for an individual.

I like the sales tax idea. The simple one that takes into account poorer people. Send everyone in the country, rich and poor, a predetermined amount to cover the sales tax on their first $25,000 (just a number) spent. This will effectively make poor people pay no tax. Then the rest of us pay whatever tax rate is agreed upon by congress for all the rest of our purchases. Business and personal both pay. There are a few problems with this idea. 1 - it will stifle growth and limit revenue because a 25%+ tax on every purchase will have people thinking more about what they spend. 2 - prices of goods will go up in addition to the tax going up because businesses have to recoup taxes paid. 3 - govt loses leverage on special interests and industries. This is why I would include businesses as being taxed. NO exceptions. Once they start, they go way too far.

I don't know if this plan would be good for society or not. But rich people would pay more in tax because they would spend more. How you make your money, or how much money you make, would not matter. Being taxed out of a house you lived in your whole life because your neighborhood got trendy and property tax went up beyond what you could pay would not happen any more. So it is an idealist notion that I don't expect to ever see come around.

Talking about taxes without talking about what those taxes are spent on is a lot like talking about baking a cake without talking about eggs.

Instituting a flat sales tax that exempts taxation on materials and tools used in manufacturing will almost immediately result in lower prices across the board as companies and corporations realize they can fire 90% of thier accounting staff and almost all of thier lawyers, then race against each other to provide their products at a lower cost than thier competition now that they don't have that overhead to deal with. The farmer will lower his prices on wheat, the transportation companies that take the wheat to the flour factory will lower theirs (who will also be benefitting from the lowered cost of fuel), as will the people at the flour factory. So will the people who take the flour to the bakery, and the bakery will, too. The truckers who take the bread to the stores will lower thiers, and the store will lower theirs. It will have a cascading effect that will benefit everybody, but mostly the poor who can now afford to buy the bread.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#48

Post by GregD » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:50 am

sarge wrote:Taxes are imposed using the exact mechanism that enabled slavery: The Government wielding the threat of deprivation of Liberty or Property at the point of a gun. If you refuse to pay taxes, ultimately men with guns will come to your house, put you in jail, and take your property. If you harbored an escaped slave, men with guns came to your house, put you in jail, and took your property. There is no false equavalency here. Its the government using the threat of men with guns to enforce what they think is "good" at the moment.

The Government does nothing "good" without the threat of men with guns punishing you if you don't do the "good" the government wants you to do, or provide the government with the means to do that "good".

That, in a word, is immoral.
Image I have seen those on the left give all sorts of justifications for the event depicted in that picture.

All I see is the immorality inherent in a system that allows the government to send men with guns into the bedrooms of sleeping children because they want to do what's best for the child. Its pretty much the same with using the threat of men with guns if you don't do the "good" the government wants you to do.
Rubbish. The state sends people with guns for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with taxes as well. If sending people with guns is immoral, it is immoral for all of those situations and that has nothing to do with taxes per se. False equivalence.

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#49

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:55 am

GregD wrote:
Rubbish. The state sends people with guns for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with taxes as well. If sending people with guns is immoral, it is immoral for all of those situations and that has nothing to do with taxes per se. False equivalence.
Thank you for making my point.

The Government does nothing, nothing at all, without the threat of sending men with guns to take away your Liberty and Property

Nothing.

The fewer reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses, the better.

So, we have to be careful what reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses.

I totally agree that the threat of men with guns to punish people who do bad things is a good idea.

I pretty much disagree that the threat of men with guns to do good is something that should be widespread in our society.

There's no false equivalency when it come to what we allow the government to do. It all ends with men with guns coming to our houses if we do not comply.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#50

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:28 am

sarge wrote:
GregD wrote:
Rubbish. The state sends people with guns for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with taxes as well. If sending people with guns is immoral, it is immoral for all of those situations and that has nothing to do with taxes per se. False equivalence.
Thank you for making my point.

The Government does nothing, nothing at all, without the threat of sending men with guns to take away your Liberty and Property

Nothing.

The fewer reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses, the better.

So, we have to be careful what reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses.

I totally agree that the threat of men with guns to punish people who do bad things is a good idea.

I pretty much disagree that the threat of men with guns to do good is something that should be widespread in our society.

There's no false equivalency when it come to what we allow the government to do. It all ends with men with guns coming to our houses if we do not comply.
What he said. How many more reasons are there we have given the gov to send men to our houses with guns, compared to the founders? Compared to 1950? Hundreds more? Well, for sure many times more. Heck, they can even come to your house these days if you refuse to bake a cake, or refuse to use certain words to refer to a person. Of course, I guess that is not the same as taxing, so maybe OT.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#51

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:41 am

BillyBob66 wrote:
What he said. How many more reasons are there we have given the gov to send men to our houses with guns, compared to the founders? Compared to 1950? Hundreds more? Well, for sure many times more. Heck, they can even come to your house these days if you refuse to bake a cake, or refuse to use certain words to refer to a person. Of course, I guess that is not the same as taxing, so maybe OT.
Like I said, talking about taxes without talking about what the government does with those taxes is like talking about baking a cake without talking about eggs.

Which why people in favor of high taxation want to talk about the morality of "not giving" rather than the immorality of taking things by force, and thus want to separate the issues.

The people turned into paupers for not baking the dessert at the wedding after party were done so by a Government official paid with taxpayer money using a court system financed by the same people.

As to the societal benefits of the taxation/regulation differences between the number of reasons we gave the government to send men with guns to our houses in 1950 as compared to today, and appropos of my comment about the societal realities of high tax policies, I offer this:
Image
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#52

Post by GregD » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:01 am

sarge wrote:The fewer reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses, the better.
Does that logic lead to the conclusion that private possession and cultivation of pot should be decriminalized?
Does that logic lead to the conclusion that most drug prohibitions should be repealed?
Does that logic lead to the conclusion that prostitution should be decriminalized?

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#53

Post by GregD » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:19 am

sarge wrote:As to the societal benefits of the taxation/regulation differences between the number of reasons we gave the government to send men with guns to our houses in 1950 as compared to today, and appropos of my comment about the societal realities of high tax policies, I offer this:
Image
Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors. Further, taxes in Japan are not low:
Japan Individual Income Tax
An individual pays tax on his income as a wage-earner or as a self-employed person. Tax for an individual who meets the criteria of a "permanent resident" in Japan will be calculated on his income in Japan and abroad. A foreign resident who is employed in Japan pays tax only on income earned in Japan.
Generally speaking there are three classes of tax payers:
Permanent resident.
Non-permanent resident (those who have been living in Japan for less than five years).
Non-resident.
The following table shows Japan individual income tax rates for 2015:

Tax Base (Yen) Tax
1 - 1,950,000 5%
1,950,001-3,300,000 10%
3,300,001 - 6,950,000 20% of base exceeding 3,300,000
6,950,001-9,000,000 23% of base exceeding 6,950,000
9,000,001 - 18,000,000 33% of base exceeding 9,000,000
18,000,001 - 40,000,000 40% of base exceeding 18,000,000
Over 40,000,000 45% of base exceeding 40,000,000


From 1.1.2013 a 2.1% surtax is added to the national tax.
Notes:
1. The rates above are before Japan municipal tax and prefectural tax.
2. Japan's individual income tax rates including local taxes are among the highest tax rates in the world. The effective top marginal tax rate is around 50%.
3. Non residents pay for salary income in Japan 20% plus additional 2.1% surtax.
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/japan/japan_tax.asp

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#54

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:40 pm

GregD wrote: Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
Surely you did not mean to say that? Are you actually saying that the decline of Detroit is due to the fact that some people don't like black people? Good grief.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#55

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:34 pm

BillyBob66 wrote:
GregD wrote: Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
Surely you did not mean to say that? Are you actually saying that the decline of Detroit is due to the fact that some people don't like black people? Good grief.
Yah.

They really hate minorities in Detroit.

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#56

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:42 pm

GregD wrote:
Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
The changes in the automotive industry were government regulations that increased the cost of manufacturing an automobile so, yah, the problems were caused by changes in the automotive industry. That and high property taxes, income taxes at the State level and high labor costs imposed by government sanctioned Unions.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#57

Post by Scott » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:28 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:The fewer reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses, the better.
Does that logic lead to the conclusion that private possession and cultivation of pot should be decriminalized?
Does that logic lead to the conclusion that most drug prohibitions should be repealed?
Does that logic lead to the conclusion that prostitution should be decriminalized?
Actually I do agree with those statements. I don't use drugs or prostitutes, but I believe they have a right to do either. The problem comes in people manipulating other people, which is a different crime. Forcing someone into the sex trade, stealing to buy drugs, etc. I really am for freedom of choice as long as it does not directly hurt others, but also people need to be allowed to feel the consequences of their choices.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#58

Post by sarge » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:36 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:The fewer reasons we give the government to send men with guns to our houses, the better.
GregD wrote:Does that logic lead to the conclusion that private possession and cultivation of pot should be decriminalized?
Yes
GregD wrote:Does that logic lead to the conclusion that most drug prohibitions should be repealed?
Herion, cocaine, opiates, etc. should be controlled as they have effects that can be detrimental to others, particularly children in the family of the users.
GregD wrote:Does that logic lead to the conclusion that prostitution should be decriminalized?
No. Because we have a responsibility as a society to prevent the victimization of women and to limit the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.

Got any more?
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#59

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:21 pm

sarge wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:
GregD wrote: Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
Surely you did not mean to say that? Are you actually saying that the decline of Detroit is due to the fact that some people don't like black people? Good grief.
Yah.

They really hate minorities in Detroit.

Image
:D Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. Might as well blame the weekly slaughter of blacks in Chicago on racists, which is to say whites. Although, I do think I see a white guy in that picture, one anyway. Maybe he did it? Maybe it's his fault? It's hard to rise up when the man is keeping you down.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#60

Post by GregD » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:39 am

sarge wrote:
GregD wrote:
Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
The changes in the automotive industry were government regulations that increased the cost of manufacturing an automobile so, yah, the problems were caused by changes in the automotive industry. That and high property taxes, income taxes at the State level and high labor costs imposed by government sanctioned Unions.
The fall of Detroit, Flint, Bay City, and other Michigan cities started before I left Michigan in 1984. The race riots were in the 60's and it is my understanding that the area self-segregated as whites moved out of Detroit to the surrounding municipalities. There are similar challenges in Grand Rapids and Muskegon, and probably other industrial Michigan cities as well. We do our segregation up north also. The unions were dysfunctional, and so too were the corporations. The product was crap. I was there. Friends and fathers of friends worked in the industry. MY father worked in the industry. Interesting anecdote: the businesses my father ran never unionized - because he treated workers well. Corporations get the unions they deserve. Government regulations? I'm sure many are stupid, but before them there were far more worker injuries and deaths, and environmental hell-holes scattered about.

Corporations, unions, and governments are run by people; people mess up and cause problems. Yes indeed, you get too many Democrat politicians together and you start hearing some really stupid ideas. I know; I was there. But you get too many Republicans together and you ALSO start hearing some really stupid ideas.

At this point you are just spewing anti-Democrat propaganda; accuracy doesn't matter as long as it sounds good to you. You don't care about trying to do better, you just want to throw rocks. Income taxes as the moral equivalent to slavery indeed; is that what you consider responsible discussion?

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