How much is enough and progressive income taxes

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#61

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:51 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:
GregD wrote:
Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
The changes in the automotive industry were government regulations that increased the cost of manufacturing an automobile so, yah, the problems were caused by changes in the automotive industry. That and high property taxes, income taxes at the State level and high labor costs imposed by government sanctioned Unions.
The fall of Detroit, Flint, Bay City, and other Michigan cities started before I left Michigan in 1984. The race riots were in the 60's and it is my understanding that the area self-segregated as whites moved out of Detroit to the surrounding municipalities. There are similar challenges in Grand Rapids and Muskegon, and probably other industrial Michigan cities as well. We do our segregation up north also. The unions were dysfunctional, and so too were the corporations. The product was crap. I was there. Friends and fathers of friends worked in the industry. MY father worked in the industry. Interesting anecdote: the businesses my father ran never unionized - because he treated workers well. Corporations get the unions they deserve. Government regulations? I'm sure many are stupid, but before them there were far more worker injuries and deaths, and environmental hell-holes scattered about.

Corporations, unions, and governments are run by people; people mess up and cause problems. Yes indeed, you get too many Democrat politicians together and you start hearing some really stupid ideas. I know; I was there. But you get too many Republicans together and you ALSO start hearing some really stupid ideas.

At this point you are just spewing anti-Democrat propaganda; accuracy doesn't matter as long as it sounds good to you. You don't care about trying to do better, you just want to throw rocks. Income taxes as the moral equivalent to slavery indeed; is that what you consider responsible discussion?
I can not argue with your next to last paragraph. Republicans have also been the source of a lot of crap, although very often when they betray their conservative principles once in office. Last paragraph, I do not agree with that so much.

One problem I see with the question of "how much is enough" is that really the answer is "no amount", or maybe "all of it". At least that seems to be the way it works out in reality. You start out in the 30s with some programs to help some hard working people ravaged by the Great Depression, people who had a huge work ethic but there was no work to be had. Then you "progress", as in progressive, to the Great Society of LBJ, and the trillions spent since then. Then, almost inevitably, you end up with Obama phones and sex change operations for prisoners and all the rest of it.

And don't forget the schools(simply as another example of how government will never have enough, no matter how much we give them). In my small southern town, the school budget is ~ $14,000 per student( something like over 100 million for 7000 students), which does not include various building related expenses that are covered by separate bond issues. That is roughly equal to the full time minimum wage. So, for each classroom of twenty, $280,000 a year is available. Subtract $50,000 a year in salary and benefits for 9 months work, and you are left with $230,000 per year for each classroom to cover chalk expense. Even though today it is computers, but still, major $. It just seems to me that would be enough money to adequately educate a student.

But instead, we struggle with ever lower results from the students nation wide, and even here locally. I do not ever remember a time when the cry has not been: "We need more money, the children are suffering from lack of funds for adequate education". ( any one else here ever hear that much?) We are occasionally treated to the spectacle of students going door to door soliciting money for school supplies. And we occasionally hear of teachers spending their own money to come up with class room supplies or maybe to get supplies for individual students. Once we even heard that toilet paper was in short supply in the school bathrooms, could we please donate something. In the meantime, the local private schools are famous for their results and manage to stay open and apparently profitable charging a tuition of maybe $6K per year. WTH? Where in the hell is all of this money going year after year?

So how much is enough? Well looking at our national and local government debts, apparently no amount will ever be enough. They can always find something additional to spend the new money on, usually spending more than the new money brings in and just borrowing what is needed.


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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#62

Post by sarge » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:03 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:
GregD wrote:
Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
The changes in the automotive industry were government regulations that increased the cost of manufacturing an automobile so, yah, the problems were caused by changes in the automotive industry. That and high property taxes, income taxes at the State level and high labor costs imposed by government sanctioned Unions.
The fall of Detroit, Flint, Bay City, and other Michigan cities started before I left Michigan in 1984. The race riots were in the 60's and it is my understanding that the area self-segregated as whites moved out of Detroit to the surrounding municipalities. There are similar challenges in Grand Rapids and Muskegon, and probably other industrial Michigan cities as well. We do our segregation up north also. The unions were dysfunctional, and so too were the corporations. The product was crap. I was there. Friends and fathers of friends worked in the industry. MY father worked in the industry. Interesting anecdote: the businesses my father ran never unionized - because he treated workers well. Corporations get the unions they deserve. Government regulations? I'm sure many are stupid, but before them there were far more worker injuries and deaths, and environmental hell-holes scattered about.

Corporations, unions, and governments are run by people; people mess up and cause problems. Yes indeed, you get too many Democrat politicians together and you start hearing some really stupid ideas. I know; I was there. But you get too many Republicans together and you ALSO start hearing some really stupid ideas.

At this point you are just spewing anti-Democrat propaganda; accuracy doesn't matter as long as it sounds good to you. You don't care about trying to do better, you just want to throw rocks. Income taxes as the moral equivalent to slavery indeed; is that what you consider responsible discussion?
Its been 33 years since then, with the folks who claim that higher taxes and more regulation is the path to a Greater Society in charge the whole time at the city and state level, half of it at the Presidential level and more than half of that time in control of Congress. If it worked as well as you say it does, they would all be shining cities on a hill instead of the cesspools of poverty, crime, violence, and despair they are.

The thing you say is the solution just plain hasn't worked, and only Partisanship prevents most on that side of the aisle from seeing it.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#63

Post by Scott » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:44 pm

I guess I am just tired of people from all sides looking at what others should do, what others owe, what new rules and regs can be imposed to others. Not many people are looking for ways they can do better, it is always imposed on the guy under the tree.

I find I am in a place in my life where if the candidate/ballot initiative is going to place new or broader limitations on me, or take more of my money, I don't vote for it. If it cuts cost, cuts bureaucracy, or gives us more freedom, I vote for it. Not that I don't value society and my contribution to it, I just think there are so many things on the books with unknown or unexpected consequences, that are intrusive, that are wasteful, that fiddling with it more does nothing to improve it. We can't even agree on what a good outcome would be. Crooked people will always cheat or find a loop hole, while law abiding people (who are not the problem in the first place) have to deal with more and more schtuff. Then many in society bash on police who try to enforce what is on the books. If we need to adjust things to fit new situations with technology and such, fine. Micromanaging and adding more waste to what is already out there, I have no use for.

Simple economics. When the bucket of money is gone, quit spending.
Simple society harmony. I won't hurt you, and you don't hurt me.
I owe you nothing, you owe me nothing. But I will help you if I can.
Don't try to force me to think a certain way, and I won't try to make you think a certain way. If you have different thoughts than me, more power to ya. Just don't try to impose them on me.

I don't do a lot of bashing or complaining about people with different political views from me. But growing up in a liberal state, and now working in a liberal city in a conservative state, and having family members that are VERY liberal, I have a lot of experience notice a trend. Often they want to impose rules on me, or require me think the way they do. And they want laws to that affect. But when there are laws they don't like (drugs, or civil protests that block freeways, or , or, or) they openly ignore them and say they are unjust or they don't like them and refuse to follow them. There are crooked conservatives, you bet. But as a general rule I don't hear the right saying we don't like that law so we will ignore it completely. We work to change it. In reality I am libertarian not right wing, but if choosing one, it is not the left.
Texas sucede? Y'all are lucky we don't invade!

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#64

Post by GregD » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:16 am

sarge wrote:
GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:
The changes in the automotive industry were government regulations that increased the cost of manufacturing an automobile so, yah, the problems were caused by changes in the automotive industry. That and high property taxes, income taxes at the State level and high labor costs imposed by government sanctioned Unions.
The fall of Detroit, Flint, Bay City, and other Michigan cities started before I left Michigan in 1984. The race riots were in the 60's and it is my understanding that the area self-segregated as whites moved out of Detroit to the surrounding municipalities. There are similar challenges in Grand Rapids and Muskegon, and probably other industrial Michigan cities as well. We do our segregation up north also. The unions were dysfunctional, and so too were the corporations. The product was crap. I was there. Friends and fathers of friends worked in the industry. MY father worked in the industry. Interesting anecdote: the businesses my father ran never unionized - because he treated workers well. Corporations get the unions they deserve. Government regulations? I'm sure many are stupid, but before them there were far more worker injuries and deaths, and environmental hell-holes scattered about.

Corporations, unions, and governments are run by people; people mess up and cause problems. Yes indeed, you get too many Democrat politicians together and you start hearing some really stupid ideas. I know; I was there. But you get too many Republicans together and you ALSO start hearing some really stupid ideas.

At this point you are just spewing anti-Democrat propaganda; accuracy doesn't matter as long as it sounds good to you. You don't care about trying to do better, you just want to throw rocks. Income taxes as the moral equivalent to slavery indeed; is that what you consider responsible discussion?
Its been 33 years since then, with the folks who claim that higher taxes and more regulation is the path to a Greater Society in charge the whole time at the city and state level, half of it at the Presidential level and more than half of that time in control of Congress. If it worked as well as you say it does, they would all be shining cities on a hill instead of the cesspools of poverty, crime, violence, and despair they are.

The thing you say is the solution just plain hasn't worked, and only Partisanship prevents most on that side of the aisle from seeing it.
Where in this thread did I claim anything about higher taxes being a solution? The only point in this thread was progressive vs. flat tax distribution.

You could choose to live somewhere with far less taxes and regulation. And yet you don't. Why? You at least could have avoided the MUD taxes. Please, show us the no tax, no regulation nirvana which is so much better. Except DO IT IN ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE IT IS OFF TOPIC HERE. Maybe also another thread to explain how income taxes are the moral equivalent of slavery. And yet another thread to explain how men with guns throwing a prostitute in jail protects her from exploitation. And yet another how Hiroshima was rebuilt after the bomb with no taxes or regulations whatsoever. And another how all Democrats everywhere and for all time are all exactly alike. Who in this discussion is even a Democrat?

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#65

Post by GregD » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:23 am

Scott wrote:I guess I am just tired of people from all sides looking at what others should do, what others owe, what new rules and regs can be imposed to others. Not many people are looking for ways they can do better, it is always imposed on the guy under the tree.

I find I am in a place in my life where if the candidate/ballot initiative is going to place new or broader limitations on me, or take more of my money, I don't vote for it. If it cuts cost, cuts bureaucracy, or gives us more freedom, I vote for it. Not that I don't value society and my contribution to it, I just think there are so many things on the books with unknown or unexpected consequences, that are intrusive, that are wasteful, that fiddling with it more does nothing to improve it. We can't even agree on what a good outcome would be. Crooked people will always cheat or find a loop hole, while law abiding people (who are not the problem in the first place) have to deal with more and more schtuff. Then many in society bash on police who try to enforce what is on the books. If we need to adjust things to fit new situations with technology and such, fine. Micromanaging and adding more waste to what is already out there, I have no use for.

Simple economics. When the bucket of money is gone, quit spending.
Simple society harmony. I won't hurt you, and you don't hurt me.
I owe you nothing, you owe me nothing. But I will help you if I can.
Don't try to force me to think a certain way, and I won't try to make you think a certain way. If you have different thoughts than me, more power to ya. Just don't try to impose them on me.

I don't do a lot of bashing or complaining about people with different political views from me. But growing up in a liberal state, and now working in a liberal city in a conservative state, and having family members that are VERY liberal, I have a lot of experience notice a trend. Often they want to impose rules on me, or require me think the way they do. And they want laws to that affect. But when there are laws they don't like (drugs, or civil protests that block freeways, or , or, or) they openly ignore them and say they are unjust or they don't like them and refuse to follow them. There are crooked conservatives, you bet. But as a general rule I don't hear the right saying we don't like that law so we will ignore it completely. We work to change it. In reality I am libertarian not right wing, but if choosing one, it is not the left.
Several points we agree on, a few that we don't that would be fun to discuss. But not much on the topic of flat tax vs. progressive tax. So I'll leave it for another thread.

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#66

Post by GregD » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:50 am

sarge wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:
GregD wrote: Cute, but bogus analysis. Detroit's fortunes have been driven to a large extent by changes in the automotive industry and by racism. It is also true that they elected at least a few poor performing mayors.................
Surely you did not mean to say that? Are you actually saying that the decline of Detroit is due to the fact that some people don't like black people? Good grief.
Yah.

They really hate minorities in Detroit.

Image
While this is off topic, consider this snipit of history about the greater Detroit area (from http://www.slate.com/articles/business/ ... using.html):
There’s no aspect of American life that refutes that myth of radical individualism as surely as housing. In 1956, when Carson was 5, the mayor of Dearborn—a suburb a few miles from his house—boasted of the town’s reputation for whiteness. “Negroes can’t get in here,” he said. “Every time we hear of a Negro moving in, we respond quicker than you do to a fire. That’s generally known.” The same year, in Royal Oak Township, home of the Detroit Zoo, a black secretary who worked for the local school board was tied up and beaten in her home by white men in masks. Black homebuyers in the suburbs were occasionally met by rock-throwing mobs, and most didn’t risk it. In 1968, the year Congress passed the Fair Housing Act, which directed HUD to “affirmatively further” fair housing, there were no black homeowners in Dearborn. There was one in Livonia. There were four in Warren, a city whose population hit 179,000 in 1970.
There have been lots of factors influencing Detroit.

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#67

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:10 pm

Wow, those Yankees sure are racist!
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#68

Post by GregD » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:33 pm

BillyBob66 wrote:Wow, those Yankees sure are racist!
Yes, we have been. Similar kinds of discrimination happened in Chicago. Now it is less explicit, harder to see the mechanisms at work, probably less extensive. But gone completely? I doubt it. Some of us want to do better.

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#69

Post by sarge » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:56 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:
Surely you did not mean to say that? Are you actually saying that the decline of Detroit is due to the fact that some people don't like black people? Good grief.
Yah.

They really hate minorities in Detroit.

Image
While this is off topic, consider this snipit of history about the greater Detroit area (from http://www.slate.com/articles/business/ ... using.html):
There’s no aspect of American life that refutes that myth of radical individualism as surely as housing. In 1956, when Carson was 5, the mayor of Dearborn—a suburb a few miles from his house—boasted of the town’s reputation for whiteness. “Negroes can’t get in here,” he said. “Every time we hear of a Negro moving in, we respond quicker than you do to a fire. That’s generally known.” The same year, in Royal Oak Township, home of the Detroit Zoo, a black secretary who worked for the local school board was tied up and beaten in her home by white men in masks. Black homebuyers in the suburbs were occasionally met by rock-throwing mobs, and most didn’t risk it. In 1968, the year Congress passed the Fair Housing Act, which directed HUD to “affirmatively further” fair housing, there were no black homeowners in Dearborn. There was one in Livonia. There were four in Warren, a city whose population hit 179,000 in 1970.
There have been lots of factors influencing Detroit.
Again.

You're quoting from 67 years ago. If what you say would work for a better society, the people in charge would have made life in Detroit better, not worse.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#70

Post by sarge » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:15 pm

GregD wrote: Where in this thread did I claim anything about higher taxes being a solution? The only point in this thread was progressive vs. flat tax distribution.
That was inferred by this post.
The OP was a practical question; what relative distribution of income taxes will have the least negative effect on our society.

What level of taxation is appropriate is interesting, but off topic here.
It does seem obvious that you feel higher levels of taxes don't have a negative effect on our society.
GregD wrote:You could choose to live somewhere with far less taxes and regulation. And yet you don't. Why? You at least could have avoided the MUD taxes. Please, show us the no tax, no regulation nirvana which is so much better.
I do live in a place where taxes are far less than in others: Texas. It was a choice based on taxation as a factor in my decision. There are only two States where there is no State Income Tax: Texas and New Hampshire. There is only one State that has niether a Sales Tax or Income tax: New Hampshire. If it didn't snow in New Hampshire, I'd live there. That would be because it is a low tax, low regulation nirvana.
GregD wrote:Except DO IT IN ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE IT IS OFF TOPIC HERE. Maybe also another thread to explain how income taxes are the moral equivalent of slavery. And yet another thread to explain how men with guns throwing a prostitute in jail protects her from exploitation. And yet another how Hiroshima was rebuilt after the bomb with no taxes or regulations whatsoever. And another how all Democrats everywhere and for all time are all exactly alike. Who in this discussion is even a Democrat?
I will respectfully remind everyone posting here that this thread is in Sarge's Bunker, and I am Sarge. When we set this up we made a cognizant decision not to be Content Nazis. The threads will go where the threads go----just like the conversations do around a campfire. If you want a Forum where you are constantly nagged to keep threads on topic, this is not the one.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#71

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:30 pm

sarge wrote:

I will respectfully remind everyone posting here that this thread is in Sarge's Bunker, and I am Sarge. When we set this up we made a cognizant decision not to be Content Nazis. The threads will go where the threads go----just like the conversations do around a campfire. If you want a Forum where you are constantly nagged to keep threads on topic, this is not the one.
I agree. I have generally, at this forum and others, felt like some folks make the OT protests a little too frequently. Greg, somewhere in some recent thread (I suppose) of mine, you apologized for going OT. I don't think I responded, so I will here: don't worry about it. In a normal group conversation, one thing naturally leads to another. Staying more or less on topic seems to be a good principle over all, but I think it can be worried about too much. Just IMO.
Last edited by BillyBob66 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#72

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:45 pm

GregD wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:Wow, those Yankees sure are racist!
Yes, we have been. Similar kinds of discrimination happened in Chicago. Now it is less explicit, harder to see the mechanisms at work, probably less extensive. But gone completely? I doubt it. Some of us want to do better.
Are the blacks up there racist? I always say Obama is, and he is from Chicago. I'm thinking those blacks who pulled an elderly man out of his car and beat him as a perceived Trump voter, and the gang that tortured the disabled white boy while screaming "F*** Trump, F**** white people" are racist. I'm thinking there are plenty of them around, considering that 95+% of blacks dropped lifetime supporter of blacks Hillary Clinton like a hot potato when Barack Obama showed up on the scene. She never stood a chance after that. Seems racist to me, as that was based entirely on skin color far as I can tell. Start about 2:11:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA7ULgcPyf0

There is a bunch of racism in this world, no doubt about it. Among Rebel whites, Yankee whites, and blacks.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#73

Post by Scuba » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:40 pm

Late to this discussion, here are my thoughts....

-We got along fine without a federal income tax for about 130 years, shouldn't have been enacted
-If we have to have a federal tax, make it a consumption tax, 12-15%. You buy a Mercedes, you pay more in taxes than I do for my Toyota. No deductions. but there should be a mechanism to give a break to encourage adoption. We adopted 3 children, not for the tax break but to make them part of our family...the 3 years of tax breaks were nice, as it is designed to help pay the hellish legal fees many encounter.
- Capital gains taxes should be abolished. The government is illegally taxing the same income twice (or more).
- Corporate tax at 15%. ZERO deductions allowed.
-Make EVERY election across the country, from dog catcher to POTUS be federally/state/municipally funded. Set a federally/state/municipal ceiling per each position...500mil for POTUS, 10mil for US rep,30 mil for US senate, 50k for Dog catcher....whatever.
- DECREASE THE FUCK OUT OF WHAT WE PAY ELECTED OFFICIALS.Public service should be a sacrifice, not the equivalent of the new landed gentry. Oh and the retirement benefits also.
- Remember the 10th Amendment, and follow it. If it isn't specified in the Constitution, let the States deal with the shit. If California wants abortion on demand and Texas doesn't, then you need to realize that a majority of Texans don't see abortion as a viable form of birth control, but rather as murder,
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Re: How much is enough and progressive income taxes

#74

Post by BillyBob66 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:52 pm

Scuba wrote:Late to this discussion, here are my thoughts....

-We got along fine without a federal income tax for about 130 years, shouldn't have been enacted
-If we have to have a federal tax, make it a consumption tax, 12-15%. You buy a Mercedes, you pay more in taxes than I do for my Toyota. No deductions. but there should be a mechanism to give a break to encourage adoption. We adopted 3 children, not for the tax break but to make them part of our family...the 3 years of tax breaks were nice, as it is designed to help pay the hellish legal fees many encounter.
- Capital gains taxes should be abolished. The government is illegally taxing the same income twice (or more).
- Corporate tax at 15%. ZERO deductions allowed.
-Make EVERY election across the country, from dog catcher to POTUS be federally/state/municipally funded. Set a federally/state/municipal ceiling per each position...500mil for POTUS, 10mil for US rep,30 mil for US senate, 50k for Dog catcher....whatever.
- DECREASE THE FUCK OUT OF WHAT WE PAY ELECTED OFFICIALS.Public service should be a sacrifice, not the equivalent of the new landed gentry. Oh and the retirement benefits also.
- Remember the 10th Amendment, and follow it. If it isn't specified in the Constitution, let the States deal with the shit. If California wants abortion on demand and Texas doesn't, then you need to realize that a majority of Texans don't see abortion as a viable form of birth control, but rather as murder,
What he said.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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