American values

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Re: American values

#46

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:36 pm

People who beleive in ritual human sacrifice can live here, they just can't kill any people while they do. People who routinely conduct Female Genital Mutilation in their home culture don't have to change those beliefs, they just can't practice Female Genital Mutilation (or at least most people think so).

There are all sorts of reasonable restrictions on certain exercises of religion that prevents people from engaging in rituals that violate the rights of others. Up until recently, we didn't have anybody making rules that forced people to do anything against their relgious practices, only rules that prevented them from causing harm to others.

I find it odd, therefore, that a person who does advocate forcing citizens to perform acts that are against their religious principals is advocating that we accomodate religious and cultural practices of immigrants.


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Re: American values

#47

Post by GregD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:29 am

BillyBob66 wrote: Basically, none of the other requirements you pose have ever been require by the majority of Americans to become one with America. But how about this:
1:learn English, the functional language of the nation you are requesting permission to immigrate to?(most assuredly if I desired to immigrate to France or Russia or Mexico, I would be very aggressive at trying to learn their language, and they would probably require me to do so, as they should)
2:Do not request that governments, schools and hospitals learn to speak your language in order to serve you. Either bring your own interpreter or learn the language. You would not believe what hospitals pay interpreters.
3:Desire to actually become an American and love America above any other country, including the one you left to come here. Don't come here with the idea of changing the country you find into the country you are trying to leave. The tax paying citizens who were here before you and like it like it is might find that objectionable.
4: Do not come here seeking welfare. Ether have a means of supporting yourself or have relatives here who can support you until you can take care of yourself.
5:Do not come here planning on pursuing a religion that commands you to kill the infidel wherever you may find him, particularly since you know know before you come here that the vast majority of the population of the country you are requesting to immigrate to are said infidels. Come here planning on learning to live with and get along with the infidel, or stay home.
6: add to #5 "don't expect the grocery stores not to sell food your religion calls offensive, or an employer that you decide to request employment with to change their ways because they sell or produce a product you find objectionable. Either work for someone else, start your own business where such objectionable products are banned, or stay home in your homeland where such is illegal.
On items 5 and 6 we are in vehement agreement. It is still a challenge to figure out in practice how to accommodate the religious views of an individual while also protecting everyone else from negative consequences of those views.

We agree on 3 at a high level but probably differ on the details; in the end I suspect our views are compatible. I am quite uncomfortable when a group of people inside the US decides to largely isolate itself from everyone else. On the one hand they ought to be free to do that; on the other hand this can lead to some seriously undesirable outcomes (although many times the outcome is just fine).

On item 4 I agree with you in general but would make exceptions for extenuating circumstances. And on 1 and 2 we disagree to the extent that I believe that a language barrier is not an excuse for denying a person basic rights (to vote effectively - ballots often need to be offered in multiple languages) and services (basic education, healthcare). But that is driven by my belief that "all people are important", which for me is more negotiable than "all people are equally important". My wife agrees with you, BTW.

In my view we seem to agree far more than we disagree? What is your view on our state of agreement?

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Re: American values

#48

Post by GregD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:47 am

sarge wrote:People who beleive in ritual human sacrifice can live here, they just can't kill any people while they do. People who routinely conduct Female Genital Mutilation in their home culture don't have to change those beliefs, they just can't practice Female Genital Mutilation ...

There are all sorts of reasonable restrictions on certain exercises of religion that prevents people from engaging in rituals that violate the rights of others.
I agree completely. If an adult woman decides to undergo FGM on herself, that is her business. But not if she is a minor and nobody else gets to make that decision for her.
sarge wrote: Up until recently, we didn't have anybody making rules that forced people to do anything against their relgious practices, only rules that prevented them from causing harm to others.
Yes we did. Maybe you didn't notice because the rules didn't conflict with your religious practices. But I would like to focus on the fact that we both aspire to rules that only prevent an individual from causing harm to others and otherwise try to accommodate the religious practices of the individual. I vehemently agree with that aspiration.

sarge wrote:I find it odd, therefore, that a person who does advocate forcing citizens to perform acts that are against their religious principals is advocating that we accomodate religious and cultural practices of immigrants.
That is very odd indeed. Maybe there is a misunderstanding somewhere. Do we agree that there is a fundamental tension between the religious practices of an individual and the rights of the people around that individual?

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Re: American values

#49

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:41 am

sarge wrote:............................

I find it odd, therefore, that a person who does advocate forcing citizens to perform acts that are against their religious principals is advocating that we accomodate religious and cultural practices of immigrants.
That is the part that always baffles me. The same liberals(not all of them, but clearly some of them and a vocal bunch at that) who complain so much (in my lifetime) about Christians calling certain behaviors sin and therefore wanting nothing to do with those behaviors, and who also advise that every one else avoid these behaviors, the same folks who seem to want to even squash the right to express such judgemental thoughts, seem anxious to accommodate folks whose views are comparatively draconian(sorry to use that word again so soon, can't think of another). While wanting to stamp out any public ( and for some extremists, even private) expression of Christian views on sin, the very same folks seem to want to import millions of folks with both beliefs and practices that are infinitely more severe than anything Christians or Jews have come up with for centuries.

Another way of putting it: the very same folks who insist- and are willing to use the courts and their new laws to bankrupt- in order to force a person to bake a cake for another person(forced servitude) totally against the bakers will and religious beliefs- will fight for the importation and placing on welfare of Muslims, for them to have prayer rooms provided by schools and employers, or help them in their demands to get pork removed from a menu, or to stop an employer that the Muslim works for from selling pork that the employee might have to see or touch. It boggles the mind.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: American values

#50

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:48 am

GregD wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote: Basically, none of the other requirements you pose have ever been require by the majority of Americans to become one with America. But how about this:
1:learn English, the functional language of the nation you are requesting permission to immigrate to?(most assuredly if I desired to immigrate to France or Russia or Mexico, I would be very aggressive at trying to learn their language, and they would probably require me to do so, as they should)
2:Do not request that governments, schools and hospitals learn to speak your language in order to serve you. Either bring your own interpreter or learn the language. You would not believe what hospitals pay interpreters.
3:Desire to actually become an American and love America above any other country, including the one you left to come here. Don't come here with the idea of changing the country you find into the country you are trying to leave. The tax paying citizens who were here before you and like it like it is might find that objectionable.
4: Do not come here seeking welfare. Ether have a means of supporting yourself or have relatives here who can support you until you can take care of yourself.
5:Do not come here planning on pursuing a religion that commands you to kill the infidel wherever you may find him, particularly since you know know before you come here that the vast majority of the population of the country you are requesting to immigrate to are said infidels. Come here planning on learning to live with and get along with the infidel, or stay home.
6: add to #5 "don't expect the grocery stores not to sell food your religion calls offensive, or an employer that you decide to request employment with to change their ways because they sell or produce a product you find objectionable. Either work for someone else, start your own business where such objectionable products are banned, or stay home in your homeland where such is illegal.
On items 5 and 6 we are in vehement agreement. It is still a challenge to figure out in practice how to accommodate the religious views of an individual while also protecting everyone else from negative consequences of those views.

We agree on 3 at a high level but probably differ on the details; in the end I suspect our views are compatible. I am quite uncomfortable when a group of people inside the US decides to largely isolate itself from everyone else. On the one hand they ought to be free to do that; on the other hand this can lead to some seriously undesirable outcomes (although many times the outcome is just fine).

On item 4 I agree with you in general but would make exceptions for extenuating circumstances. And on 1 and 2 we disagree to the extent that I believe that a language barrier is not an excuse for denying a person basic rights (to vote effectively - ballots often need to be offered in multiple languages) and services (basic education, healthcare). But that is driven by my belief that "all people are important", which for me is more negotiable than "all people are equally important". My wife agrees with you, BTW.

In my view we seem to agree far more than we disagree? What is your view on our state of agreement?
We seem to be in a shocking state of relative agreement, at least compared to our usual state of disagreement. What is going on? BTW, you must have a smart wife! ;)
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: American values

#51

Post by GregD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:04 am

BillyBob66 wrote:Another way of putting it: the very same folks who insist- and are willing to use the courts and their new laws to bankrupt- in order to force a person to bake a cake for another person(forced servitude) totally against the bakers will and religious beliefs- will fight for the importation and placing on welfare of Muslims, for them to have prayer rooms provided by schools and employers, or help them in their demands to get pork removed from a menu, or to stop an employer that the Muslim works for from selling pork that the employee might have to see or touch. It boggles the mind.
To me a prayer room in a large facility seems like an easy and reasonable accommodation. There is a large Muslim population here and I've never heard anything about removing pork from menus or from what an employer sells. I have heard of requests for policies to provide pork-free options on menus, which IMHO is a reasonable request when there is room for multiple options. Hijabs are common and even burkas not so rare. I find it hard to believe a woman would choose such attire during a Texas gulf coast summer and suspect there is some level of religious coercion going on but have not yet discerned an appropriate opportunity to intervene.

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Re: American values

#52

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:06 am

GregD
Off Topic
On item 4 I agree with you in general but would make exceptions for extenuating circumstances. And on 1 and 2 we disagree to the extent that I believe that a language barrier is not an excuse for denying a person basic rights (to vote effectively - ballots often need to be offered in multiple languages) and services (basic education, healthcare). But that is driven by my belief that "all people are important", which for me is more negotiable than "all people are equally important". My wife agrees with you, BTW.
Until recent times, as people fought to immigrate to the USA, there were zero accommodations for language barriers available or apparently needed. It was understood that if you were fighting hard to legally enter our English speaking society, that you would naturally want to learn to speak our language, and it was a requirement for doing so. And people did so. If they became citizens with the right to vote, they marked a ballot that was in English only, since they had previously met the requirement for citizenship that they become at least minimally functional in English. Much as it would only be logical that if I am going to live in Mexico- citizen or otherwise- I had better learn Spanish. And I would be laughed out of the country if I asked them to accommodate my lack of Spanish skills by providing ballots and drivers test and school teachers and hospital workers who spoke my language. But as far as those immigrants who asked to come here in the past, they learned English, they got it done, they joyously became actual Americans, and the country thrived and grew stronger with their presence. They could still speak their native German or Italian or Greek if they desired, but they learned English if they became citizens, and if they didn't there was no accommodation for them. Somehow it all worked out for the greater good for both them as they escaped one country to become American, and for the USA. E pluribus unum maybe?
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: American values

#53

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:08 am

GregD wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:Another way of putting it: the very same folks who insist- and are willing to use the courts and their new laws to bankrupt- in order to force a person to bake a cake for another person(forced servitude) totally against the bakers will and religious beliefs- will fight for the importation and placing on welfare of Muslims, for them to have prayer rooms provided by schools and employers, or help them in their demands to get pork removed from a menu, or to stop an employer that the Muslim works for from selling pork that the employee might have to see or touch. It boggles the mind.
To me a prayer room in a large facility seems like an easy and reasonable accommodation. ......
So you are fine with the employer being required to provide such for Southern Baptists like me, if we say we need it?
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: American values

#54

Post by GregD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:41 am

BillyBob66 wrote:We seem to be in a shocking state of relative agreement, at least compared to our usual state of disagreement. What is going on?
The agreement comes when the discussion is very close to fundamental principles. What is most important to me is that we agree on those; if we do we should be able to come to a mutually-beneficial arrangement.

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Re: American values

#55

Post by GregD » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:44 am

BillyBob66 wrote:So you are fine with the employer being required to provide such for Southern Baptists like me, if we say we need it?
Yes, if it has been a long-standing central feature of your religious practice.

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