American values

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Re: American values

#31

Post by sarge » Mon May 29, 2017 8:44 pm

I'll add to the above:

"Yet."

They'll get around to it here after they've taken down a few more Confederate General statues---


You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: American values

#32

Post by BillyBob66 » Mon May 29, 2017 10:25 pm

sarge wrote:Its interesting to note that Lincoln's General Order #100, which Sherman used as his justification for scorched earth tactics in his March to the Sea was later used by Sherman to justify the same tactics used against Native Americans on the Plains.

Nobody calling for his statue coming down for waging a war of genocide-------
No, they are not, are they? There seems to be a strange inconsistency.
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Re: American values

#33

Post by sarge » Tue May 30, 2017 8:24 am

BillyBob66 wrote:
sarge wrote:Its interesting to note that Lincoln's General Order #100, which Sherman used as his justification for scorched earth tactics in his March to the Sea was later used by Sherman to justify the same tactics used against Native Americans on the Plains.

Nobody calling for his statue coming down for waging a war of genocide-------
No, they are not, are they? There seems to be a strange inconsistency.
Not really as the purpose for some is to present to the world the booger eating knuckle dragging racist troglodytes of the South (and you don;t want to be like THEM do you?).

Statues of Yankee Generals in boston and NYC don't fit that bill.
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Re: American values

#34

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue May 30, 2017 11:57 am

sarge wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:
sarge wrote:Its interesting to note that Lincoln's General Order #100, which Sherman used as his justification for scorched earth tactics in his March to the Sea was later used by Sherman to justify the same tactics used against Native Americans on the Plains.

Nobody calling for his statue coming down for waging a war of genocide-------
No, they are not, are they? There seems to be a strange inconsistency.
Not really as the purpose for some is to present to the world the booger eating knuckle dragging racist troglodytes of the South (and you don;t want to be like THEM do you?).

Statues of Yankee Generals in boston and NYC don't fit that bill.
My "There seems to be a strange inconsistency" was actually way more sarcasm than any actual surprise at the inconsistency/double standard, but without me indicating such with an icon or something, no way for anyone to know that. I often forget that no one can hear the tone of my voice or see me rolling my eyes, LOL! A double standard by the left on all of these matters- not just statues- is expected by me as their norm.
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Re: American values

#35

Post by GregD » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:38 pm

sarge wrote:
Flatliner wrote:Sarge, it was a reasonably good speech celebrating something we should all be happy about. We aren't likely to tolerate a monument to Usama Bin Laden, why would the fathers of the confederacy be any different. The OPs post really wasn't an endorsement of a politician and I don't think that was the conversation he was trying to spark.
This is an act intended to divide us, one being done to undo actions that were intended to bind us back in the aftermath of being rent asunder in the worst way that division within a country could be.
Indeed I was not endorsing anything about Mitch Landrieu other than this speech. I was not endorsing anything about George W. Bush other than the quoted remark attributed to him.

Of sarge's remarks in this thread I disagree most strongly with this one. It is not just disingenuous, but I believe a bald-faced lie to suggest that these statues were intended to "bind us back in the aftermath of being rent asunder". What "us" are you referencing? As Landrieu pointed out, there are no corresponding statues to the slaves. This is no accident, it is the intent. By their appearance and placement these statues certainly seem to convey the idea that even though the war was over - and lost - the oppression would continue. I suspect there is ample historical evidence that many of the people involved in erecting the statues had this explicit intent. Finally, Landrieu quoted a current resident of New Orleans describing that these statues continue to send this message to a segment of the city's population even today. So by appearance, probable historical evidence, and modern-day effect these are symbols of oppression. Read the transcript of the speech again Sarge. Regardless of whatever sort of mayor or politician Mitch Landrieu may be, the statements in this particular speech shine a bright light on the lie that these statues, "were intended to bind us back". They were intended to exclude some of us. I don't think you share that intention.

Even so, remember also these words of George W. Bush:
A great nation does not hide its history. It faces its flaws and corrects them.
Do not hide the history of that war, do not hide the creation of these statues. They are a part of our history. Place them where they will be remembered. But these statues do not inspire us to become the people we want to be. Their places of prominence in the daily life of New Orleans should be occupied by symbols that do inspire us so. We should, when we can, correct our flaws.

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Re: American values

#36

Post by Scott » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:58 pm

As stated earlier, I try to be color blind and treat people as people. I understand history, and I choose to give respect to everyone until they show they do not deserve it. It is probably naive of me to ignore history, but I really believe if we don't ignore it, or better said get past it, we will never get past it. I am originally from California, not part of the North or South. But if we are going to correct our flaws, then we need to do honestly in the north, south, and west. At the time of the civil war, MOST U.S. citizens considered whites supreme and any one of color a lesser person. So do we need to remove, or annotate, any symbol of the revolution since most were slave owners? Anyone associated with the railroad and abuse of Chinese workers? Ther vast genocide of Indians? and has been mentioned, even Lincoln was racist. I don't know how we adequately do that. The south has more targets to aim at, the north has its share as well. How do we sanitize history? Or do we accept it, and move on? I am not from slave heritage, but I do have persecution in my heritage on a smaller, but still lethal scale. And there are things in my ancestry that I am not proud of. I am Christian, and specifically LDS (mormon). In the 1800's Missouri governor signed an extermination order, declaring mormons to be an enemy of the state and to be exterminated or driven from the state (lets not get into a religious argument here, just a point of history that it was a religious group). That order was not rescinded until 1976. Do I get to go into missouri and have everything about Gov Boggs removed since my direct forefathers were abused at his order? Do I get restitution for land taken? Or woman raped? Or do I move on and accept there are bad things in history, and get on with my life? There are many that don't like Christians, there are many who don't think mormons are Christians, there are many different ideas in the world. I live my life and don't worry about all that. If slave descendants want to erect statues, more power to them. I will support them too.
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Re: American values

#37

Post by GregD » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:27 am

Flatliner wrote: Where I might take issue is in equating 'e pleuribus unim' with liberal thought. America used to be seen as a 'melting pot' versus a 'salad bowl'. I would argue that becoming one was a great idea and that it was very much a conservative one. It is liberal thinkers that have pushed multiculturalism and political correctness. 'e pluribus unim' certainly isn't a concept that looks like a salad bowl[emoji4]
This is my point in this thread. e pleuribus unim is a fundamental liberal principle, and arguably the defining liberal principle. Is this principle also shared by self-identified Conservatives?

And does it matter whether that leads to a melting pot or a salad bowl? Why not have a bit of both?

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Re: American values

#38

Post by pofloyd1 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:40 am

Scott wrote:As stated earlier, I try to be color blind and treat people as people. I understand history, and I choose to give respect to everyone until they show they do not deserve it. It is probably naive of me to ignore history, but I really believe if we don't ignore it, or better said get past it, we will never get past it. I am originally from California, not part of the North or South. But if we are going to correct our flaws, then we need to do honestly in the north, south, and west. At the time of the civil war, MOST U.S. citizens considered whites supreme and any one of color a lesser person. So do we need to remove, or annotate, any symbol of the revolution since most were slave owners? Anyone associated with the railroad and abuse of Chinese workers? Ther vast genocide of Indians? and has been mentioned, even Lincoln was racist. I don't know how we adequately do that. The south has more targets to aim at, the north has its share as well. How do we sanitize history? Or do we accept it, and move on? I am not from slave heritage, but I do have persecution in my heritage on a smaller, but still lethal scale. And there are things in my ancestry that I am not proud of. I am Christian, and specifically LDS (mormon). In the 1800's Missouri governor signed an extermination order, declaring mormons to be an enemy of the state and to be exterminated or driven from the state (lets not get into a religious argument here, just a point of history that it was a religious group). That order was not rescinded until 1976. Do I get to go into missouri and have everything about Gov Boggs removed since my direct forefathers were abused at his order? Do I get restitution for land taken? Or woman raped? Or do I move on and accept there are bad things in history, and get on with my life? There are many that don't like Christians, there are many who don't think mormons are Christians, there are many different ideas in the world. I live my life and don't worry about all that. If slave descendants want to erect statues, more power to them. I will support them too.
Well said.

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Re: American values

#39

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:19 pm

pofloyd1 wrote:
Scott wrote:As stated earlier, I try to be color blind and treat people as people. I understand history, and I choose to give respect to everyone until they show they do not deserve it. It is probably naive of me to ignore history, but I really believe if we don't ignore it, or better said get past it, we will never get past it. I am originally from California, not part of the North or South. But if we are going to correct our flaws, then we need to do honestly in the north, south, and west. At the time of the civil war, MOST U.S. citizens considered whites supreme and any one of color a lesser person. So do we need to remove, or annotate, any symbol of the revolution since most were slave owners? Anyone associated with the railroad and abuse of Chinese workers? Ther vast genocide of Indians? and has been mentioned, even Lincoln was racist. I don't know how we adequately do that. The south has more targets to aim at, the north has its share as well. How do we sanitize history? Or do we accept it, and move on? I am not from slave heritage, but I do have persecution in my heritage on a smaller, but still lethal scale. And there are things in my ancestry that I am not proud of. I am Christian, and specifically LDS (mormon). In the 1800's Missouri governor signed an extermination order, declaring mormons to be an enemy of the state and to be exterminated or driven from the state (lets not get into a religious argument here, just a point of history that it was a religious group). That order was not rescinded until 1976. Do I get to go into missouri and have everything about Gov Boggs removed since my direct forefathers were abused at his order? Do I get restitution for land taken? Or woman raped? Or do I move on and accept there are bad things in history, and get on with my life? There are many that don't like Christians, there are many who don't think mormons are Christians, there are many different ideas in the world. I live my life and don't worry about all that. If slave descendants want to erect statues, more power to them. I will support them too.
Well said.
Ditto.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: American values

#40

Post by Flatliner » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:37 pm

GregD wrote:
Flatliner wrote: Where I might take issue is in equating 'e pleuribus unim' with liberal thought. America used to be seen as a 'melting pot' versus a 'salad bowl'. I would argue that becoming one was a great idea and that it was very much a conservative one. It is liberal thinkers that have pushed multiculturalism and political correctness. 'e pluribus unim' certainly isn't a concept that looks like a salad bowl[emoji4]
This is my point in this thread. e pleuribus unim is a fundamental liberal principle, and arguably the defining liberal principle. Is this principle also shared by self-identified Conservatives?

And does it matter whether that leads to a melting pot or a salad bowl? Why not have a bit of both?
I couldn't disagree more. When is the last time you heard a liberal say, 'Learn to speak English and fly an AMERICAN flag...' cultural assimilation is a concept every liberal friend I have is opposed to.


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Re: American values

#41

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:58 pm

Flatliner wrote:
GregD wrote:
Flatliner wrote: Where I might take issue is in equating 'e pleuribus unim' with liberal thought. America used to be seen as a 'melting pot' versus a 'salad bowl'. I would argue that becoming one was a great idea and that it was very much a conservative one. It is liberal thinkers that have pushed multiculturalism and political correctness. 'e pluribus unim' certainly isn't a concept that looks like a salad bowl[emoji4]
This is my point in this thread. e pleuribus unim is a fundamental liberal principle, and arguably the defining liberal principle. Is this principle also shared by self-identified Conservatives?

And does it matter whether that leads to a melting pot or a salad bowl? Why not have a bit of both?
I couldn't disagree more. When is the last time you heard a liberal say, 'Learn to speak English and fly an AMERICAN flag...' cultural assimilation is a concept every liberal friend I have is opposed to.


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Well said! The common attitude you describe does not lead to " e pluribus unum", out of many, one, but more like the opposite.
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Re: American values

#42

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:25 am

Flatliner wrote:
GregD wrote:
Flatliner wrote: Where I might take issue is in equating 'e pleuribus unim' with liberal thought. America used to be seen as a 'melting pot' versus a 'salad bowl'. I would argue that becoming one was a great idea and that it was very much a conservative one. It is liberal thinkers that have pushed multiculturalism and political correctness. 'e pluribus unim' certainly isn't a concept that looks like a salad bowl[emoji4]
This is my point in this thread. e pleuribus unim is a fundamental liberal principle, and arguably the defining liberal principle. Is this principle also shared by self-identified Conservatives?

And does it matter whether that leads to a melting pot or a salad bowl? Why not have a bit of both?
I couldn't disagree more. When is the last time you heard a liberal say, 'Learn to speak English and fly an AMERICAN flag...' cultural assimilation is a concept every liberal friend I have is opposed to.


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Ah. So from your perspective to become "one" is to become just like everyone else. Sigh. Yes, cultural assimilation as a requirement to become part of the "one" is anathema to liberals like me. I am something like a 5th generation American from European immigrants and there are significant cultural differences between you and I. So one of us isn't really an American? From your perspective, exactly which cultural practices are requirements to be an American citizen? And for each of these cultural requirements why is it so important that you want to take away the freedom to be different?

From the liberal perspective, at least this liberal perspective, the requirements for citizenship are the minimum necessary for a functioning society, more-or-less. Things like each person is equally important as every other person; if you can't abide by that principle then go elsewhere. Sadly, that perspective conflicts with your perspective that your culture is so incredibly important that everyone must conform to it.

Or do I have something wrong?

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Re: American values

#43

Post by Flatliner » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:52 am

We don't have to look any further than what is currently happening in Europe and the UK with the Islamic immigrant population to see my point. What does seem like THE liberal principal is redefining words to suit their meanings. Becoming 'one' is not 'remaining separate'. They simply don't mean the same thing. Kind of like 'everybody paying their fair share' doesn't mean 'only half pay anything'.


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Re: American values

#44

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:04 am

Flatliner wrote:We don't have to look any further than what is currently happening in Europe and the UK with the Islamic immigrant population to see my point.
When I look at the situation in Europe what I see is evidence that your perspective (as I understand it) fails.
Flatliner wrote:What does seem like THE liberal principal is redefining words to suit their meanings. ... Kind of like 'everybody paying their fair share' doesn't mean 'only half pay anything'.
Human language, outside of mathematics and computers, is inherently fuzzy. "Fair", in particular, means many quite different things depending upon context and perspective. And if you are referencing taxes, odds are I pay more than you and I suspect I still don't pay my fair share (and if I don't pay more than you, congratulations, you are certainly doing very well financially).

But the point I would like to focus on, is this statement on which we may be in complete agreement:
Flatliner wrote:Becoming 'one' is not 'remaining separate'. They simply don't mean the same thing.
I don't want to remain separate from you. I want to "become 'one'" with you in the sense that we both fully support the same nation. But what do I have to give up to do that? Do I have to attend your church? Or a similar church? Do I have to dress like you? Eat the same food that you do? Listen to the same music? In my view, so long as we both can coexist and even cooperate such that we both "live long and prosper", we have "become one". One thing I require out of this arrangement is that no individual is any more or less important than any other individual. Can you live with this requirement? What are the things you require from this arrangement?

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Re: American values

#45

Post by BillyBob66 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:13 pm

GregD wrote:
Flatliner wrote:We don't have to look any further than what is currently happening in Europe and the UK with the Islamic immigrant population to see my point.
When I look at the situation in Europe what I see is evidence that your perspective (as I understand it) fails.
Flatliner wrote:What does seem like THE liberal principal is redefining words to suit their meanings. ... Kind of like 'everybody paying their fair share' doesn't mean 'only half pay anything'.
Human language, outside of mathematics and computers, is inherently fuzzy. "Fair", in particular, means many quite different things depending upon context and perspective. And if you are referencing taxes, odds are I pay more than you and I suspect I still don't pay my fair share (and if I don't pay more than you, congratulations, you are certainly doing very well financially).

But the point I would like to focus on, is this statement on which we may be in complete agreement:
Flatliner wrote:Becoming 'one' is not 'remaining separate'. They simply don't mean the same thing.
I don't want to remain separate from you. I want to "become 'one'" with you in the sense that we both fully support the same nation. But what do I have to give up to do that? Do I have to attend your church? Or a similar church? Do I have to dress like you? Eat the same food that you do? Listen to the same music? In my view, so long as we both can coexist and even cooperate such that we both "live long and prosper", we have "become one". One thing I require out of this arrangement is that no individual is any more or less important than any other individual. Can you live with this requirement? What are the things you require from this arrangement?
It is really not that difficult. Obviously you do not have to join my church or any church, when has the USA nation ever required that, though individual sovereign states(back when there was still such a thing) may well have required that back at the beginning. But even then, that was simply a requirement to live in MA, not to immigrate to the USA. They were always free to live in another state. Was that question rhetorical, or were you setting up a straw man for me to knock down? ;)

Basically, none of the other requirements you pose have ever been require by the majority of Americans to become one with America. But how about this:
1:learn English, the functional language of the nation you are requesting permission to immigrate to?(most assuredly if I desired to immigrate to France or Russia or Mexico, I would be very aggressive at trying to learn their language, and they would probably require me to do so, as they should)
2:Do not request that governments, schools and hospitals learn to speak your language in order to serve you. Either bring your own interpreter or learn the language. You would not believe what hospitals pay interpreters.
3:Desire to actually become an American and love America above any other country, including the one you left to come here. Don't come here with the idea of changing the country you find into the country you are trying to leave. The tax paying citizens who were here before you and like it like it is might find that objectionable.
4: Do not come here seeking welfare. Ether have a means of supporting yourself or have relatives here who can support you until you can take care of yourself.
5:Do not come here planning on pursuing a religion that commands you to kill the infidel wherever you may find him, particularly since you know know before you come here that the vast majority of the population of the country you are requesting to immigrate to are said infidels. Come here planning on learning to live with and get along with the infidel, or stay home.
6: add to #5 "don't expect the grocery stores not to sell food your religion calls offensive, or an employer that you decide to request employment with to change their ways because they sell or produce a product you find objectionable. Either work for someone else, start your own business where such objectionable products are banned, or stay home in your homeland where such is illegal.

I'm sure I could go on and on, but that is more than enough to make the point. Plus I want to expand on #5. If you are coming here from a democratically elected(at one time not long ago) government who said such as this in their charter/covenant, you must promise to ditch all such crap, it simply is not acceptable here and we don't want to hear a word in this country: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Off Topic
"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust............Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it............. the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him..........
If you voted for those who promote such as that, because you believe such as that yourself, then you are going to have to dump that part of your culture in order to be allowed to immigrate to America, period. If it requires that you find a new religion in order to dump beliefs such as that, then you must do so in order to allowed in here among us.

However, you may eat whatever food you prefer, wear whatever clothes you like, etc and you may practice your religion as long as it does not require that you behead me and mine if we continue to resist conversion. Or, if we even speak against your religion, as has happened to certain cartoon drawers and such in overseas who blasphemed the wrong guy. We insist on the right to denigrate your religion, just as you may do ours. You may NOT kill me or mine just because you don't like what we say.

I can't wait to hear the objections to my draconian requirements for being allowed into our country. But I think they are perfectly rational, and would be required of me of most any country I might want to immigrate to, except for modern, pathetic and crippled by PC Europe. And those changes in Europe are recent, of the recent generation.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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