setback for 2nd amendment...

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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#46

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:08 pm

I'm still not going to go for any law that requires registration to exercise an Enumerated Right, or anything that is used to exercise those rights. Not church membership, not printing presses, not computers or video cameras, and not guns.

I'll not go for anything that involves suspension of Due Process.

I'll not go for anything that resembles Prior Restraint.

I'll not go for anything that makes the exercise of any of those rights impossible through licensing or tests or financial obligations.

I learned from the experiences of this country during the Jim Crow Era when the Democrats did all of that.

It seems the Democrat party has not.


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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#47

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:09 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:Find a solution that does the following:

Protects the right of The People to Keep and Bear Arms as an Enumerated Right under the Second Amendment which has been affirmed three times by SCOTUS.

Allows them to use those Arms for Self Protection as an Un-enumerated Right under the 9th Amendment as affirmed twice by SCOTUS.

Protects them for deprivation of their Property without Due Process as an Enumerated Right under the 4th and 5th Amendments, which has been affirmed countless times by SCOTUS.

Provides them with Equal Protection Under The Law as provided for by the 14th Amendment.
Universal background checks with universal registration is consistent with all of this. Whether it would actually help reduce gun violence is another question. But there are a LOT of guns in the hands of people that shouldn't have them; those guns are coming from SOMEWHERE.

sarge wrote: Abandon all pretense that the Democrat Party actually cares about the 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th Amendments to the Constitution and is willing to establish precedents that can be used in the future to limit all of the others in order to deprive The People of the Enumerated Rights of the 2nd Amendment without going through the trouble of repealing it.
I'm advocating for a specific policy, not a party.
Let me get this straight:

You really don't care whether the law you propose has any effect on gun violence.

Your only purpose is to make it more difficult for people to own guns.
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#48

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:21 pm

sarge wrote: Let me get this straight:

You really don't care whether the law you propose has any effect on gun violence.

Your only purpose is to make it more difficult for people to own guns.
Nope. Completely wrong on both counts. I strongly suspect that what I propose will have a significant effect on gun violence, but I don't know that for certain. And I see no significant additional burden or constraints on responsible law-abiding gun owners; it should be no more of a hassle to sell your gun as it was to buy it from the local gun store.

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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#49

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:25 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote: Let me get this straight:

You really don't care whether the law you propose has any effect on gun violence.

Your only purpose is to make it more difficult for people to own guns.
Nope. Completely wrong on both counts. I strongly suspect that what I propose will have a significant effect on gun violence, but I don't know that for certain. And I see no significant additional burden or constraints on responsible law-abiding gun owners; it should be no more of a hassle to sell your gun as it was to buy it from the local gun store.
Well, lets go with the evidence:

What are the gun violence rates in States and Cities that have Universal Gun Registration?

We could probably use that as a guide for its efficacy.

You know, use actual data rather than strong suspicions.
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#50

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:32 pm

I do find it somewhat odd that the Party that thinks that going through the trouble and expense of registration and examination to exercise an Enumerated Right is not going to be a problem for The People is also the one that says asking that someone use a free ID to exercise an Un-enumerated Right is burdensome.

IOW, you certainly do think that its burdensome, because you've staked a political position that it is when it applies to voting.

You just don't want to admit it when it comes to guns.
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#51

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:19 pm

sarge wrote:
Well, lets go with the evidence:

What are the gun violence rates in States and Cities that have Universal Gun Registration?

We could probably use that as a guide for its efficacy.

You know, use actual data rather than strong suspicions.
Let's not go with YOUR evaluation of the evidence, since, for example, there are lots of reasons why you couldn't use that as a guide for efficacy.

Instead I propose to defer to the judgement of law enforcement organizations. If they are of the opinion that such a plan would not provide them a useful tool in reducing gun violence, then I'm happy to drop the idea.

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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#52

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:22 pm


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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#53

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:38 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:
Well, lets go with the evidence:

What are the gun violence rates in States and Cities that have Universal Gun Registration?

We could probably use that as a guide for its efficacy.

You know, use actual data rather than strong suspicions.
Let's not go with YOUR evaluation of the evidence, since, for example, there are lots of reasons why you couldn't use that as a guide for efficacy.

Instead I propose to defer to the judgement of law enforcement organizations. If they are of the opinion that such a plan would not provide them a useful tool in reducing gun violence, then I'm happy to drop the idea.
Actually, I want to use the FBI crime statistics.

I can post them if you'd like.
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#54

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:40 pm

GregD wrote:Are Chiefs of Police Democrats?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-g ... RR20151027

Most of them are Police Union members.

I really don't find it shocking that Union members with government jobs in the six figure range would deviate that much from the Democrat Party position.
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#55

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:54 pm

sarge wrote:
Actually, I want to use the FBI crime statistics.

I can post them if you'd like.
Even if there are no problems with the data we won't agree on the analysis. In this, as in climate science, I consider neither of us particularly competent in the area and would prefer to defer to experts.

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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#56

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:53 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote:
Actually, I want to use the FBI crime statistics.

I can post them if you'd like.
Even if there are no problems with the data we won't agree on the analysis. In this, as in climate science, I consider neither of us particularly competent in the area and would prefer to defer to experts.

What kind of analysis is needed?

If the incidence of gun crimes is higher in places where they have universal gun registration than it is in places where it is not, then universal gun registration is not effective.

I'm pretty sure you know that's what the numbers show, and I'm pretty sure that if they showed the opposite you'd have posted them already.
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#57

Post by GregD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:02 pm

sarge wrote: What kind of analysis is needed?

If the incidence of gun crimes is higher in places where they have universal gun registration than it is in places where it is not, then universal gun registration is not effective.

I'm pretty sure you know that's what the numbers show, and I'm pretty sure that if they showed the opposite you'd have posted them already.
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. There may be other factors at play. Since controls on movement across state borders are minimal compared to movement across national borders there is the possibility that a national registry could be significantly more effective than state or local registries. So indeed a lot of careful analysis is likely needed.

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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#58

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:33 pm

GregD wrote:
sarge wrote: What kind of analysis is needed?

If the incidence of gun crimes is higher in places where they have universal gun registration than it is in places where it is not, then universal gun registration is not effective.

I'm pretty sure you know that's what the numbers show, and I'm pretty sure that if they showed the opposite you'd have posted them already.
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. There may be other factors at play. Since controls on movement across state borders are minimal compared to movement across national borders there is the possibility that a national registry could be significantly more effective than state or local registries. So indeed a lot of careful analysis is likely needed.

Unless the data supported your contention, then you'd say that no analysis is needed.

But lets play that game.

Lets take the gun crime rates of New York, which has Universal Gun Registration and restricts ownership of guns more than most other states, which is bordered by 6 states, most of which have similar gun ownership requirements, and one foreign nation that has strict gun control laws, and has one international port, with three others in the neighboring states.

And compare them to the gun crime rates of Texas which has fairly "liberal" gun ownership laws with no registration of any kind, which is bordered by 4 states that have similarly liberal gun ownership laws, has a 1500 mile border with a country which actually prohibits private ownership of guns but is run by drug gangs, and has 4 international ports.

And lets see what that comparison might tell us, OK?
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#59

Post by sarge » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:39 pm

Here's some gun legislation I can get behind:

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/109/Bill/SB1736.pdf
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: setback for 2nd amendment...

#60

Post by Scott » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:08 pm

A 'common sense' fix to the loophole.

If a person I sell a gun to privately has a License To Carry, that means they passed a background check by the state, and if they are a criminal after getting said permit the state pulls their permit. So I can confidently perform that transaction and know they are legal to own a gun. Have everyone get a carry permit, then no guns are registered, but I am covered. My problem with it is I don't trust the government. Some are in it for the good, most are in it for their own gain, or power. While I don't want more laws, if we are going to have to have some reform (past what the constitution in my mind clearly gives us), this is the best option. Everyone qualifies for a carry permit with a very narrow criminal or mental exception. Or better yet, give everyone a permit, and only take them away from those that don't qualify any longer. Then we can all show the government trusts us, and we can keep the govt out of our private transactions.
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