The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

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Here, you can discuss Guns, Shooting, Hunting and other Outdoor Sports that involve Firearms. If you don't want to see Guns and related subjects being discussed, please respect the rights of the people here to do so in peace. We respect that right, that's why this forum was created. This Forum was not created for the purposes of you telling people that Guns shouldn't be discussed or that they should be banned. We respect your right to do so, but discussions about Gun Control and Gun Rights belong in the "I don't like guns and I want to say so." Forum and will be moved there when made in the Guns Forum.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#16

Post by sarge » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:10 am

rhjanes wrote:flat amazing sarge.....
Someone also posted about "another site recently started and allows it" then referenced our 400+ members and commented that it has NOT swirled down the sewer...
Course I'm thinking several other hiking forums BADLY need to run a built-in script along the lines of "if not logged on in 365 days AND never posted"....TOS would see about 50 percent of their "members" disappear as they have never posted.

FWIW;

I'm pretty sure who made that post and I think that place would be better off if he was banned and I was let back in.


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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#17

Post by sarge » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:57 pm

Let me say this:

My criticisms of that place in the past were always done in a sincere effort to improve the place. In that same spirit let me offer this:

You're not losing Donations because you don't allow discussions about guns. You're losing them because you have told people that expressing their Christian identity is so offensive that you can't allow people to even see it.

You're also losing them because the Internet Is Forever, and you can't control it.

Here's how you'll get your Donations back up:

1. Relinquish any claim to the Copyright of the people who post there. If you do that, the creative people who have left your site will return and participate by providing the content they did in the past.

2. Open the entire site up---no "Donating Members" area. At the beginning of each Fiscal Year, close that section down and ask for folks to help pay the bills and provide you with a modest profit. Set a specific amount that, when reached, will cause that area to be open again. During this process, allow only donating member access. Explain clearly and transparently that these are not "Donations", but a fee you charge to pay the bills and reap a modest profit---nobody will begrudge you that.

3. Apologize to the people of Faith whom you have so grievously insulted and so completely alienated, and re-institute their ability to express their Christian (and other) Identities however they want.

You might lose a couple of people that way, but the majority of them will be the sort that have caused you trouble, even though you may agree with them politically or as regards religion. There's at least three guys over there that are more trouble than I ever was and are doing you more harm than I ever could.

It isn't about guns, it isn't about subjects---its about how you've treated people.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#18

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:37 pm

sarge wrote:....the site will not take sides in such disputes, and that we handle the situation by coming at it from the direction that there are no "bad subjects" just bad actors who wish to disrupt otherwise peaceful discussions between like minded people is the way to go.

Those wish or are pre-disposed to cause trouble in discussions about religion, politicsm and guns on this site don;t post here because they know two things:

1. We will allow them to voice their opinion.
2. If voicing that opinion is disruptive, it will be moved to a thread where it is not.

IOW

If you want to say "Gun owners are stupid, irresponsible, and making up for sexual inadequacies with a phallic symbol." You can. If you say that in the "Guns" forum it will be moved to the "I I Don't Like Guns, I Don't Think Anyone Should Talk About Them, And I Want To Say So" forum where you can discuss that aspect of your opinion all day long with like minded folk.

And the vice is also versa.
That's it right there. This is a point I have tried to make at more than one forum. Isn't it really simple? The problem is not that Joe Blow come here and starts a thread titled "Why I do not believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God or that he even existed". The problem is that someone is going to need to tell Joe Blow what an A hole he is for thinking that, OR if I try to give Joe some reasons why he is wrong about that, he is(sometimes) offended and is going to need to let me know what a superstitious moron I am for believing the Bible.

But it seems simple to me to simply have quickly enforced rules that say if you do that, in either direction, your post is deleted, and if you persist in aggression you are deleted. Instead, these days, from college campuses to forums where people communicate varied ideas, there is a strong push to ban politically incorrect ideas or speech. And these bans tend to go only in one direction, against anything traditional. In an attempt to keep a certain side from being offended. People - again especially from one side- are just awfully easily offended these days. They just can't take hearing an idea that is opposed to their idea, and seem to think that they should not have to hear such. We must hear their ideas, but they should not be subjected to the other side, they must be protected from that.

The problem is not with the ideas, it is with the Ad Hominem attacks that (some) people on either side feel like they must carry out. (though to be honest I feel it mostly comes from one side) Ban that. Ban the people that consistently act like that.

Or, there is the alternative idea that you have here about even allowing the aggressors and giving them their own sub forums. But, after giving folks here freedom of expression, are you seeing much activity that needs to be moved to those slots? I'm thinking little to none.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#19

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:29 pm

And BTW, in actuality this(dealing with nasty posters vs ideas) is already the rule at certain sites. Over the years I have seen insults and ridicule/sarcasm appear- from the early days at the other site- not in debates about religion or guns or the military so much as with Climashield vs down, HH Supershelters vs down, pads vs UQs, you name it. Trust me, having been there since early 07(before that just lurking), I have seen some nasty crap erupt out of the blue over opinions on dang equipment. But the mods never come in and say "You know, the HHSS, or just plain HH, seems to be offensive by the majority, so from now on please no longer discuss the HHSS or even any HH products because we don't want folks being offended".

Nope, never once did they find it necessary to do that, they just quickly came in and shut down whoever was being insulting, whichever side they were on, or on both sides if needed. And over the years we managed to have many civil discussions about the, say, HHSS even though the consensus was probably that the HHSS sucked. That was the opinion of most of the folks over there, and yet we managed to discuss it peacefully, non-peaceful posters were shut down, and the forum did not bog down in bitter argument and members did not quit en masse. Why can't that approach work on any subject, especially in an OT area?
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#20

Post by BillyBob66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:40 pm

And I'll say something else, slightly OT I guess: I think there was also PC(so to speak) when it comes to gear. Not PC so much as GC(gear correct).

There were always certain hammocks du jour, certain types or brands of UQs, that were more popular than others, When someone showed up asking about whatever it was, there were always quickly, and predictably, folks showing up saying with confidence that what they used was clearly superior to any other and smart experienced folks would not seriously consider anything else. And that would usually be one or two brands or types/approaches which quickly became the consensus of most folks. Other approaches would almost be ridiculed. I watched this happen over the years as new equipment showed up and suddenly became all the rage.

But you may ask: what's wrong with that, assuming all remained civil(often it did not). Maybe that just means this new stuff was that much better? Well, on a strictly personal level, just me, here was my problem with it: I was often a contrarian on whatever the gear was. By that I mean: the new gear might be just great, but I always seemed to be able to get real good results with numerous different types of hammocks and insulation. And I might find the new gear great in some ways, but maybe worse in others, so pros and cons but really the older and now dumped by so many hammock or whatever was just as good OVERALL seemed to me. But again, maybe the majority was right and I can't really say they were not. But let me give one specific example.

I was very active at the other forum for 9 or 10 years. That's a long time. At first every one loved either Speer top loading hammocks or even more often, believe it or not, the bottom loading HH hammocks like I started with were very popular and many raved about how comfy they were, plus a few DIY usually Speer style. About maybe 2 or 3 years after the forums started, a new vendor(won't say which because they make a great product overall and I have several pieces of their gear which I like a lot) showed up with a hammock that was noticeably different in some areas than the other brands. Man, it took off like wildfire, with rave reviews all around. I could not wait to get one. I got it and it seemed wonderful like everyone said. And soon it was the recommended hammock to any noob by 80-90% of responses.

But it wasn't long until I noticed- for the 1st time with any hammock (I had Speer 8.5 and HH Explorer UL and Claytor No Net before the new hammock) an irritating pain in my left calf. I fiddled around with various solutions, usually a pillow or sack under my knees, and/or hanging the foot high and different amounts of ridge line tension, with varying success. But as time went on, I found myself using this hammock less and less because of that one problem and no other. I was more likely to use my Claytor with a PeaPod or even my HH. But it remained at the top of the polls at the forum.

And then I noticed a change. First, more and more threads showed up with folks complaining about that calf ridge problem. This went on for a couple of years, until finally I noticed this particular hammock was no longer the hands down recommendation of folks, and there were even more than a few folks showing up arguing that they preferred the HHs or older hammocks, due to this one problem they had not been able to ovecome. But for at least a couple of years, there was only one hammock that got the most recommendations. In fact, you might be subject to a little ridicule if you thought otherwise. Or I guess another way to put it is, if you suggested other hammocks might be as good, you might offend some folks! ;) (and same could be said about other equipment)

Sorry if this is OT, it might be only somewhat related. But, point is, people can fight and get offended about all kinds of things. Never really understood why my signature was such a problem for some.
Last edited by BillyBob66 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#21

Post by TXyakr » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:26 am

I wonder if it is only firearms that upset these people or if the discussion of anything used or taken with you while camping in a hammock that could be used as a deadly weapon is a problem for them. When in states that prohibit the public carry of knives with blades over 5.5" long, are those a deadly weapon whose discussion should be banned on that "Nanny Hammock Forum"? Ha ha ha. Y'all know that Daesh (ISIS) "Lone Wolf" sympathizers have attempted and even successful killed people with Ka-Bar knives and Machetes. So ban all discussion of those on that "Nanny Hammock Forum"? Then ban discussion of all pointy objects like arrows, spears, blow gun darts, tarp poles unless they have rubber balls permanently attached to the ends, ha ha ha... I could go on but am sinking in my own sarcasm... and my head is hurting from the ridiculous illogical nature of those East Coast Liberals, "Bless Their Hearts."

Don't come down to Texas or any other state in the south where an aggressive wild hog/boar could bite your posterior while you hang... arguably 99% of all wild pigs I have encountered run as fast as they can from me as soon as they smell or see me. Only once did one run straight at me, I think it was disoriented and the wind was blowing from it to me, both of us got away unharmed but it did freak me out a little (had .270 rifle not sidearm could not reload and aim fast enough to take it out). Also once when 2 cougars screamed back and forth at each other across my camp, but they were just letting us know it was their hunting grounds and they were passing thru, likewise no harm to any of us beast or human. ;-) But a firearm is a good idea IMO just incase, and you had better go to a gun range of some sort and train with it regularly, so hopefully you don't freeze or fumble with a darn safely or slide or something like that. I like Glocks and revolvers because they are simple and fairly reliable, but every firearm has its pros and cons just practice with yours often. Be safe.

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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#22

Post by Scott » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:13 am

BillyBob66 wrote:And I'll say something else, slightly OT I guess: I think there was also PC(so to speak) when it comes to gear. Not PC so much as GC(gear correct).

There were always certain hammocks du jour, ...
I also noticed this when I started, and I came to understand there is a balance of supporting good vendors, and being totally honest about product and such. I also think there is a degree of validation is everyone else likes what we have, or if we get what everyone else has. Safety in numbers?

I am somewhat new to all this, but I have spent a lot of time researching and reading, and making some. My gear is cobbled together, but works for me. The most comfortable hammock thus far for me is a tablecloth that ended up being 11' x 65". Cheap, simple, "heavy" compared to some, but it worked for me. My daughter now has it at college and I am using a lighter weight DIY, which is also comfy, just different. And from a supporting vendor.

We want support vendors so we have options, but that support can cross over into obligation and what-not.

Just submit a simple post asking if a pad can work in place of an UQ...
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#23

Post by Scott » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:15 am

TXyakr wrote: "Bless Their Hearts."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Texas sucede? Y'all are lucky we don't invade!

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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#24

Post by Rich S. » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:10 pm

Darn.....
Was told to pray for those I am resentfull at.

Guess I'm not ready to pray for them yet,
but guess am ready to start praying for the horses they rode in on.

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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#25

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:01 am

Rich S. wrote:Darn.....
Was told to pray for those I am resentfull at.

Guess I'm not ready to pray for them yet,
but guess am ready to start praying for the horses they rode in on.
Well, the thing is, there are a lot of awful nice folks over there, just like here. I have communicated with many of them for many years and have met some of them on backpacking and/or car camping trips. And I miss all of that. My only problem is, in general, that some folks- probably relatively new folks but could be(I'll never know who) some of the old members- decided they did not like my signature that had been there for 9 or 10 years. And these folks were, by power of their complaints, able to get my signature banned. I'm sure I could not have gotten their signatures banned if I did not like them for whatever reason, but as usual the opposite side from me is able to keep me from having the signature I want. It is their right to give in to these folks, but it is not right to do so IMO. You always know that the actions are not going to be taken against the liberals, these things only go one way these days. Wouldn't it be about as easy to choose my side for a change? To say "OK guys, I know you hate these references to Christ or the Bible, I fully understand how you just can not stand it and it horrifies you, but these guys have been here forever, probably before you, you don't have to read the signatures, so just suck it up or click your block button either for the individual or block signatures, you don't get to choose which signatures are acceptable"?

So that is irritating enough to start with, but to make it worse I don't even know who the complainers were. They have hidden the threads so I can never know. So, I pretty much had to go away. Not because I did not like most of the folks who posted over there, but it is just a matter of principle about this one thing mainly.

And it is not at all that I just had to have a Bible quote as part of my signature in order to enjoy discussing hammock camping, I do not. But if you have already allowed this for 9+ years, and no apparent conflict that I am aware of has happened, and all of a sudden it is just intolerable, well then I am offended at whoever requires this change of me. See, I can also be offended. There were always a few offensive signatures that I thought were purposely done to jab at the folks with Christian related signatures. But it never occurred to me to complain about those, I could tolerate them. Not so in the opposite direction.

This all just reminds me of today's sissy ass college students(obviously not all of them) and teachers who can not stand to be offended, and anything that is opposed to their left wing opinions just can not be tolerated. They simply must not hear those words, it is as though we have shot them with a gun, just really harmful to them. So free speech on today's campuses is simply shut down, every one is just so danged offended and it(words or opinions) just causes such harm to their delicate little hearts. That stuff I was brought up on about disagreeing with what you say but fighting to the death for your right to say it is just gone from so much of America. It has been replaced with something closer(in attitude) to Soviet or Chinese re-education camps, where you are sent to get your head right. If you can not say the party approved words, then better just keep your mouth shut, in their opinion.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#26

Post by sarge » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:56 am

Well,

The thread has been shut down (I know, I'm shocked too), so someone finally did a cut and paste and sent me a very long email (thank you person who shall remain nameless because you'd likely get banned if they knew who you are). Here's your problem right here:
Guns and hammocks? How could you have any kind of intelligent discussion? Gun owners aren't inclined to intelligent discussion.
That was the fourth post in about 15-16 pages. Several people complained about it, the Moderator's response was "He expressed his opinion, that's his right." As far as I know its still there.

Others used it as an example of why the subject would be so "divisive"---and I agree, guys like that who post unnecessarily spiteful stuff right off the bat (without being moderated) at the beginning of a supposedly civil discussion is what would make it divisive. AND the fact that the Moderators looked with approval on that statement shows that they don't understand the problem (or they agree with him and are taking sides).

Its also an example of the kind of post we would move to the "I don't like guns" forum here, and we'd do that to keep the peace while allowing everybody to express their opinion. Some folks want to keep the peace by rewarding guys like that and shut down or delete a thread that they've caused a ruckus in---which only encourages guys like that to do it more, whether its on a subject they don't like or on a thread started by an individual they don't like (ask me how I know).

But here's the thing. They're trying to solve some problems: "Donations" are going down, no real new content is being provided, people don't stick around like they used to, and they ban folks based on personal reasons and an inability to admit the truth when its spoken to them and didn't count on the word getting out about that. They continue to allow bad actors to remain and they allow them to stay because they agree with them politically. So, they reap what has been sown: a site full of liberals who's only real talents are snark and hitting the "Report Post" button. I mean, seriously, if you set your place up to be hostile towards half the population in the country, be prepared to see some diminished participation (and be prepared to see someone to set up an alternative who isn't as dependent on or desirous of profit as you are). The problem is that they're using the wrong medicines to treat the disease. They tried the blog thing after chasing off creative people with their copyright policy so it met with dismal failure (and allowing the same guy who posted that thing above to mock it as one of their first blog posts), and now they're trying to boost "Donations" by offering the rubes the ability to pay ten bux a year to talk about guns and hammocks without dealing with the people who would make that a problem for them, and when there's an alternative that allows the limited number of folks who want to talk about guns and hammocks the freedom to do so for free who will deal with the inevitable trouble makers in a manner that won't take sides. What they really need to do is practice some transparency and forgiveness and work towards getting some folks to return who can provide them some content and who will interact with people better.

Oh, and for the record---and because they won't take the steps to correct the bad information that's being put out:

I was not banned from that place because I violated the TOS regarding religion. I was banned for discussing truthfully the copyright policy of that place on Facebook.

Sorry for the vent---but I do feel a bit better now.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#27

Post by PapaSmurf » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:07 am

sarge wrote:Here's your problem right here:
Guns and hammocks? How could you have any kind of intelligent discussion? Gun owners aren't inclined to intelligent discussion.
That was the fourth post in about 15-16 pages. Several people complained about it, the Moderator's response was "He expressed his opinion, that's his right." As far as I know its still there.
I complained about this very post with no success.
In my opinion, this thread was indeed carefully moderated to achieve a desired outcome.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#28

Post by sarge » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:24 am

I complained about this very post with no success.
In my opinion, this thread was indeed carefully moderated to achieve a desired outcome.
I know. I'm shocked too.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#29

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:55 am

PapaSmurf wrote:
sarge wrote:Here's your problem right here:
Guns and hammocks? How could you have any kind of intelligent discussion? Gun owners aren't inclined to intelligent discussion.
That was the fourth post in about 15-16 pages. Several people complained about it, the Moderator's response was "He expressed his opinion, that's his right." As far as I know its still there.
I complained about this very post with no success.
In my opinion, this thread was indeed carefully moderated to achieve a desired outcome.
Yes, exactly relating to my previous post about the desire to shut down free speech, only opinions from one side are allowed! First, regarding the insult, why does that side always so quickly go to the insults, to the Ad Hominem attack? Not attacking the idea but rather the person? Who cares what unintelligent gun owners might have to say, because it is self evident that they are unintelligent! It is so routine, so common place. You just always know it is not going to take long for it to happen, and it always does.

Then the next thing is: why would the mods for a moment tolerate the insult and attack? Can they not see that it clearly is against the TOS? Do you think for a moment that if I was still there and said(not that I would, but if I did say) " people who are against taking guns into the woods are moronic, left wing pussies", do you think they would defend me and say I was just expressing my opinion as was my right? Obviously they would not. So they are probably just allowing things that agree with their own bias, TOS be damned.

But am I wrong to feel most of this sort of thing, at least in recent years, originates from one side? For sure on our college campuses it originates from one side. I have never heard of conservatives on college campuses(even if there are not many of them) trying to keep someone from speaking their opinion, at least not in decades.

And BTW, these people would attack Christians with the exact same Ad Hominem approach.

Sarge, check your PMs please.
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Re: The other forum is tearing itself apart about guns..

#30

Post by sarge » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:24 am

Then the next thing is: why would the mods for a moment tolerate the insult and attack? Can they not see that it clearly is against the TOS? Do you think for a moment that if I was still there and said(not that I would, but if I did say) " people who are against taking guns into the woods are moronic, left wing pussies", do you think they would defend me and say I was just expressing my opinion as was my right? Obviously they would not. So they are probably just allowing things that agree with their own bias, TOS be damned.
He and more than a couple others get away with that and more because:

1. They agree with him.

2. They have the same enemies and its useful to have him around so he can say bad things about their common enemies so they don't have to.
You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me. ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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