God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

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God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#1

Post by dirtwheels » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:07 am

There is a great deal of misunderstanding about what many call a simple book only followed by simpletons. So why is it so easy to misunderstand the bible, a mentor told me one that the bible is so easy to understand that our enemy has influence countless men to write books about to help us misunderstand it.

Reading the few threads regarding the bible, science and the existence of God have been a little entertaining and there are a number of good contributions to these threads and I appreciate that these discussions are possible as well as civil.

There are so many things God told his people plainly in the bible that it took man and science 100's of years to catch up with. God told his people enough about hygiene to prevent the plagues and the millions of lives lost to modern medical practices. But there is no evidence that the knowledge in the bible was passed on by a being with a "higher intelligence".

The principles behind the dietary rules God laid out in the bible are absolutely sound and lead to better lives and health, yet BOTH the church and science have yet to embrace God's way of operating the very machine God designed and created for us to make our way on this flying ball of dirt we call home.

I was also told by mentors that God is a God of order, and it seems that there is a vein of science that agrees with God's order and creation, at least in principle and in math.

Please mosey on over to the link below for a short read and video interview of a somewhat accepted physicist and let me know what you think.

http://conservativetribune.com/physicis ... mpaign=can

YA'LL have a great day and enjoy your Christmas season that comes after the most Christian of all holidays of all, Thanksgiving.



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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#2

Post by sarge » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:44 pm

You mean he allows for the possibility that God did it?

He must not be a real scientist then.
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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#3

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:17 pm

dirtwheels wrote:There is a great deal of misunderstanding about what many call a simple book only followed by simpletons. So why is it so easy to misunderstand the bible, a mentor told me one that the bible is so easy to understand that our enemy has influence countless men to write books about to help us misunderstand it.

Reading the few threads regarding the bible, science and the existence of God have been a little entertaining and there are a number of good contributions to these threads and I appreciate that these discussions are possible as well as civil.

There are so many things God told his people plainly in the bible that it took man and science 100's of years to catch up with. God told his people enough about hygiene to prevent the plagues and the millions of lives lost to modern medical practices. But there is no evidence that the knowledge in the bible was passed on by a being with a "higher intelligence".

The principles behind the dietary rules God laid out in the bible are absolutely sound and lead to better lives and health, yet BOTH the church and science have yet to embrace God's way of operating the very machine God designed and created for us to make our way on this flying ball of dirt we call home.

I was also told by mentors that God is a God of order, and it seems that there is a vein of science that agrees with God's order and creation, at least in principle and in math.

Please mosey on over to the link below for a short read and video interview of a somewhat accepted physicist and let me know what you think.

http://conservativetribune.com/physicis ... mpaign=can

YA'LL have a great day and enjoy your Christmas season that comes after the most Christian of all holidays of all, Thanksgiving.
Very interesting thread, Dirtwheels! And Merry Christmas and happy holiday season to you as well. I love what you said above(so much that I just read it aloud to my wife, who liked it also) when you wrote: "a mentor told me one that the bible is so easy to understand that our enemy has influence countless men to write books about to help us misunderstand it.".

You say " God told his people enough about hygiene to prevent the plagues and the millions of lives lost to modern medical practices. But there is no evidence that the knowledge in the bible was passed on by a being with a "higher intelligence".".

But, it seems to me anyway, that the existence of many commands that are proved healthy and correct by modern medical science, and indeed pretty much unknown until the 1800s at the earliest( I always bring up how the medics treated Semmelweiss in the late 1800s, who turned out to be doing what Moses said to do), that the existence of these commands which turn out to be medically (not politically! LOL! )correct are in themselves evidence of divine inspiration. Plus, as far as I know, no commands that are harmful by modern medical science! Who else of ancient days could such be claimed about?

You are right to say that living this way would have prevented millions of lives lost to infectious disease over the millennia. How else did Moses come up with commands (that Moses said were from the God who HEALS you!) that so contrasted with the medicine of ancient Egypt and the rest of the pagan world? The type of advise that might tell you to put donkey- or even human- dung in a splinter wound, or something of that nature? Or even up through the middle ages, there was some pretty disgusting things considered well known cures or aids:
http://www.history.com/news/history-lis ... techniques
Off Topic
Babylonian Skull Cure
For the ancient Babylonians, most illnesses were thought to be the result of demonic forces or punishment by the gods for past misdeeds. Doctors often had more in common with priests and exorcists than modern physicians, and their cures usually involved some component of magic. For example, if a patient ground their teeth, the healer might suspect that the ghost of a deceased family member was trying to contact them as they slept. According to ancient necromantic texts, the doctor would recommend sleeping by a human skull for a week as a way of exorcising the spirit. To ensure this disturbing treatment worked, the tooth-grinder was also instructed to kiss and lick the skull seven times each night................
Bloodletting
For thousands of years, medical practitioners clung to the belief that sickness was merely the result of a little “bad blood.” Bloodletting probably began with the ancient Sumerians and Egyptians, but it didn’t become common practice until the time of classical Greece and Rome...........................While it could easily result in accidental death from blood loss, phlebotomy endured as a common medical practice well into the 19th century. Medieval doctors prescribed blood draining as a treatment for everything from a sore throat to the plague, and some barbers listed it as a service along with haircuts and shaves................

Cannibal Cures
Suffering from persistent headaches, muscle cramps or stomach ulcers? Once upon a time, your local physician may have prescribed an elixir containing human flesh, blood or bone. So-called “corpse medicine” was a disturbingly common practice for hundreds of years. The Romans believed that the blood of fallen gladiators could cure epilepsy, and 12th century apothecaries were known for keeping a stock of “mummy powder”—a macabre extract made from ground up mummies looted from Egypt. Meanwhile, in 17th century England, King Charles II was known for enjoying a draught of “King’s Drops,” a restorative brew made from crumbled human skull and alcohol.

These cannibalistic medicines were thought to have magical properties. By consuming the remains of a deceased person, the patient also ingested part of their spirit, leading to increased vitality and wellbeing. The type of cure prescribed usually corresponded to the type of ailment—skull was used for migraines, and human fat for muscle aches—but getting fresh stock could be a gruesome process. In some cases, the sickly would even attend executions in the hope of getting a cheap cup of the freshly killed person’s blood. .........
Even though the Israelites had a long history with the Babylonians, even all of them living there for 70 years during the 1st exile, you won't find any such nonsense- even very harmful things according to modern germ theory - in Moses' writings or anywhere else in the Bible. Instead, it claims that "the God who heals you from the diseases of the Egyptians" will do so if you live by His commands, and they all turn out to be correct based on modern germ theory. Man, what a lucky ancient dude, right! ;)

Any of the above ways of doing things would have been unthinkable under the law's of Moses. He had every kind of rule about how you had to be purified with washings or quarantines if you had contacted a dead animal or especially human, how utensils used by the sick had to be exposed to fire(aka sterilized) if they would survive the fire, otherwise well washed, etc. Or instead of using human waste as medicine, they were commanded to do their business outside the camp, and have a shovel with them so they could bury it! No one else figured this health item out for armies on expedition until when, 2 or 3 hundred years ago(3000 years later)? Most soldiers would die of disease due to infectious disease and human waste in camp and water! So, for me, though not hard scientific evidence, this is indeed evidence of divine inspiration, how else could he have got so lucky? Maybe not indisputable proof, but evidence. And at the very least, major food for thought. But maybe that is just me, and maybe I am crazy!

Add to that not only Moses' correct prophecies, but those of the rest of the prophets, and the "evidence" starts getting stout. But I guess no one wants to talk about that, must be boring, as I did not get a single comment on my 1st thread on that subject. Not even to tell me how wrong I am.

Thanks again for your interesting thread and link and the saying about the enemy getting so many folks to write books telling us what the Bible is really saying, so we can misunderstand it!
Last edited by BillyBob66 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#4

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:18 pm

sarge wrote:You mean he allows for the possibility that God did it?

He must not be a real scientist then.
Well, obviously not!
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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#5

Post by BillyBob66 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:26 pm

http://conservativetribune.com/physicis ... mpaign=can
Off Topic
When responding to a question about the meaning of life and God, Kaku said that most physicists do believe in a God because of how the universe is designed. Ours is a universe of order, beauty, elegance and simplicity.

He explained the universe didn’t have to be this way — it could have been ugly and chaotic. In short, the order we see in the universe is proof of God..................
Well, I figure Greg and a few others will beg to differ about that! ;)

However, Paul and the Psalmist agree with him, or he agrees with them:
"Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse..........."
Psalm 19 [ For the director of music. A psalm of David. ] The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. 4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
Rom8:21the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption23..but..we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.. groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#6

Post by dirtwheels » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:38 am

Seems more than a "little" accomplished...

But I guess he's no Einstein, except for major theory breakthru's and a shared belief that science reveals God's existence.
sarge wrote:You mean he allows for the possibility that God did it?

He must not be a real scientist then.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#7

Post by dirtwheels » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:10 am

BillyBob66 wrote:
dirtwheels wrote:
Very interesting thread, Dirtwheels! And Merry Christmas and happy holiday season to you as well. I love what you said above(so much that I just read it aloud to my wife, who liked it also) when you wrote: "a mentor told me one that the bible is so easy to understand that our enemy has influence countless men to write books about to help us misunderstand it.".

You say " God told his people enough about hygiene to prevent the plagues and the millions of lives lost to modern medical practices. But there is no evidence that the knowledge in the bible was passed on by a being with a "higher intelligence".".

But, it seems to me anyway, that the existence of many commands that are proved healthy and correct by modern medical science, and indeed pretty much unknown until the 1800s at the earliest( I always bring up how the medics treated Semmelweiss in the late 1800s, who turned out to be doing what Moses said to do), that the existence of these commands which turn out to be medically (not politically! LOL! )correct are in themselves evidence of divine inspiration. Plus, as far as I know, no commands that are harmful by modern medical science! Who else of ancient days could such be claimed about?

You are right to say that living this way would have prevented millions of lives lost to infectious disease over the millennia. How else did Moses come up with commands (that Moses said were from the God who HEALS you!) that so contrasted with the medicine of ancient Egypt and the rest of the pagan world? The type of advise that might tell you to put donkey- or even human- dung in a splinter wound, or something of that nature? Or even up through the middle ages, there was some pretty disgusting things considered well known cures or aids:
http://www.history.com/news/history-lis ... techniques
Off Topic
Babylonian Skull Cure
For the ancient Babylonians, most illnesses were thought to be the result of demonic forces or punishment by the gods for past misdeeds. Doctors often had more in common with priests and exorcists than modern physicians, and their cures usually involved some component of magic. For example, if a patient ground their teeth, the healer might suspect that the ghost of a deceased family member was trying to contact them as they slept. According to ancient necromantic texts, the doctor would recommend sleeping by a human skull for a week as a way of exorcising the spirit. To ensure this disturbing treatment worked, the tooth-grinder was also instructed to kiss and lick the skull seven times each night................
Bloodletting
For thousands of years, medical practitioners clung to the belief that sickness was merely the result of a little “bad blood.” Bloodletting probably began with the ancient Sumerians and Egyptians, but it didn’t become common practice until the time of classical Greece and Rome...........................While it could easily result in accidental death from blood loss, phlebotomy endured as a common medical practice well into the 19th century. Medieval doctors prescribed blood draining as a treatment for everything from a sore throat to the plague, and some barbers listed it as a service along with haircuts and shaves................

Cannibal Cures
Suffering from persistent headaches, muscle cramps or stomach ulcers? Once upon a time, your local physician may have prescribed an elixir containing human flesh, blood or bone. So-called “corpse medicine” was a disturbingly common practice for hundreds of years. The Romans believed that the blood of fallen gladiators could cure epilepsy, and 12th century apothecaries were known for keeping a stock of “mummy powder”—a macabre extract made from ground up mummies looted from Egypt. Meanwhile, in 17th century England, King Charles II was known for enjoying a draught of “King’s Drops,” a restorative brew made from crumbled human skull and alcohol.

These cannibalistic medicines were thought to have magical properties. By consuming the remains of a deceased person, the patient also ingested part of their spirit, leading to increased vitality and wellbeing. The type of cure prescribed usually corresponded to the type of ailment—skull was used for migraines, and human fat for muscle aches—but getting fresh stock could be a gruesome process. In some cases, the sickly would even attend executions in the hope of getting a cheap cup of the freshly killed person’s blood. .........
Even though the Israelites had a long history with the Babylonians, even all of them living there for 70 years during the 1st exile, you won't find any such nonsense- even very harmful things according to modern germ theory - in Moses' writings or anywhere else in the Bible. Instead, it claims that "the God who heals you from the diseases of the Egyptians" will do so if you live by His commands, and they all turn out to be correct based on modern germ theory. Man, what a lucky ancient dude, right! ;)

Any of the above ways of doing things would have been unthinkable under the law's of Moses. He had every kind of rule about how you had to be purified with washings or quarantines if you had contacted a dead animal or especially human, how utensils used by the sick had to be exposed to fire(aka sterilized) if they would survive the fire, otherwise well washed, etc. Or instead of using human waste as medicine, they were commanded to do their business outside the camp, and have a shovel with them so they could bury it! No one else figured this health item out for armies on expedition until when, 2 or 3 hundred years ago(3000 years later)? Most soldiers would die of disease due to infectious disease and human waste in camp and water! So, for me, though not hard scientific evidence, this is indeed evidence of divine inspiration, how else could he have got so lucky? Maybe not indisputable proof, but evidence. And at the very least, major food for thought. But maybe that is just me, and maybe I am crazy!

Add to that not only Moses' correct prophecies, but those of the rest of the prophets, and the "evidence" starts getting stout. But I guess no one wants to talk about that, must be boring, as I did not get a single comment on my 1st thread on that subject. Not even to tell me how wrong I am.

Thanks again for your interesting thread and link and the saying about the enemy getting so many folks to write books telling us what the Bible is really saying, so we can misunderstand it!
Thanks, for getting me the most important seal of approval of all on that comment. Well the comment I merely repeated.

Ain't it weird that there is so little esteem for this book of books? Our founding fathers esteemed the bible so much that it was the primary tool used to teach reading, the original mission of some of those famed Ivy league schools. But our modern academics refuse to teach actual history.

Don't forget that our 1st president is a victim of blood letting. It's absolutely amazing the path modern medicine has taken to catch up to God's simple instructions. It's truly written so simple it takes help to misunderstand. Imagine a world where the created man actually took heed to God's written instructions. One example of God's writting on behalf of man and his intent to help man is where GOD told men that he set before them life and death, and just in case men had not been paying attention God made sure he told men which one would be in their best interest when he plainly stated choose life.

It would be interesting to see what odds the professionals could come up with that those prescriptions for hygiene could have been pulled out of Moses arse rather than being related from a more informed being, AKA GOD!

The science behind God's instructions to his people may not be irrefutable proof that God exist, but I'd venture to posit that the science behind God's instructions will never be found faulty.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#8

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:51 am

dirtwheels wrote:There is a great deal of misunderstanding about what many call a simple book only followed by simpletons. So why is it so easy to misunderstand the bible, a mentor told me one that the bible is so easy to understand that our enemy has influence countless men to write books about to help us misunderstand it.
If the Bible were truly easy to understand it would not take a "mentor" to say so.

And in fact there seems to be a counter example starting with this post on another thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1333&start=75

But we can recap here:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. 9
Please explain exactly what that means and also explain how that meaning is easy to understand from the text.

And then we can see if Bill agrees with your interpretation. If it is simple to understand there should be little room for disagreement.

Finally, compare and contrast THAT meaning what we know to be true about the structure of the Earth, solar system, and galaxy.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#9

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:24 am

dirtwheels wrote:The science behind God's instructions to his people may not be irrefutable proof that God exist, but I'd venture to posit that the science behind God's instructions will never be found faulty.
Please respond to my post right above this one and then tell me again how the Bible will never be found faulty.

If following the Bible improves your quality of life, then by all means do that. Similarly enjoy also the art and the hobbies that you find improve your quality of life. But some of the statements you make about the Bible are clearly inaccurate. The Roman Catholic Church, arguably the most historically significant Christian institution does not agree with many of these statements. Are they also under the influence of your "enemy"? Is everyone that disagrees with your mentor's positions on the Bible also under the direction of your "enemy"?

It is clear that the Bible has got some things wrong, independent of whether it has got some things right.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#10

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:14 am

Greg, you are asking for more comments on a subject that we have already discussed ad infinitum in another thread devoted to that very subject. Why should we start it up again here? Surely every thing that needs to be said about that verse we have already argued about, and if you have something new why not post it in that thread? In the meantime, I am very surprised you have not joined me in the Moses prophecy threads to either tell me how Moses got the far future of the nation of Israel so wrong, or if not that at least to convince me how any one, any normal man with no instruction from God, could have got all of that right(along with all the other amazing things he got right). But no word from you yet, even with me begging for comments. Well, if you don't like that thread, maybe hold on, I think I am soon to be posting on some of the other prophets, maybe you will have a contrasting opinion to me about them?
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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#11

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:28 am

BillyBob66 wrote:Greg, you are asking for more comments on a subject that we have already discussed ad infinitum in another thread devoted to that very subject. Why should we start it up again here? Surely every thing that needs to be said about that verse we have already argued about, and if you have something new why not post it in that thread?
The OP asserts that the Bible is easy to understand. My point here is that it is not. My example is this passage from the very beginning of the book in question. Is it easy to understand? It is a short passage, what does it mean? I assert that this is one example where EITHER the Bible is difficult to understand OR it is wrong on this one point, OR both.

I won't go with your prophesy "evidence" until this one point is settled. This case is very clear-cut. And it refutes much of what you assert.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#12

Post by BillyBob66 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:39 pm

GregD wrote:
BillyBob66 wrote:Greg, you are asking for more comments on a subject that we have already discussed ad infinitum in another thread devoted to that very subject. Why should we start it up again here? Surely every thing that needs to be said about that verse we have already argued about, and if you have something new why not post it in that thread?
The OP asserts that the Bible is easy to understand. My point here is that it is not. My example is this passage from the very beginning of the book in question. Is it easy to understand? It is a short passage, what does it mean? I assert that this is one example where EITHER the Bible is difficult to understand OR it is wrong on this one point, OR both.

I won't go with your prophesy "evidence" until this one point is settled. This case is very clear-cut. And it refutes much of what you assert.
Greg, as you might say, this is such total BS. You won't go over to the prophecy section because you know you have no rational explanation, just as you don't for Moses correct health laws. The passage you quoted is easy to understand, we have been back and forth on that in the other thread. I'm not going to let you force me to re-type everything that was said over in that thread all over again right here. Except to say that, while the passage is clear in saying- and easily understood- that God created a layer above the waters to separate those waters from the waters below, easily understood and accurate description of our atmosphere, that there are some verses(about the stars) a little later on that cast doubt on what Moses meant by the earlier passage. We have been over all of that. I conceded that one to you, and admitted I have no explanation for it and do not understand how those can work together. Now you want to repeat it. I don't blame you I guess, it is natural to count on that one out of a hundred that I can not explain(although there are other parts of the Bible I can not explain, it is over my head), rather than the volumes you have no answer for.

As for the other parts of the creation account that you say are wrong, you are just basing that on what you think you know about the ancient past. As you were not there to observe, I will have to put your opinions on that in Kaku's undecidable category. But please don't keep using that one item as an excuse to avoid the other dozens of items. Also, I have been begging for comments over there for about a month, during which time there was no word from you saying that you would not weigh in on the other "until this one point is settled.". This demand has just suddenly appeared. It was already settled, when I conceded the one verse about the stars in the firmament to you.
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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#13

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:23 pm

BillyBob66 wrote:I conceded that one to you, and admitted I have no explanation for it and do not understand how those can work together. Now you want to repeat it. I don't blame you I guess, it is natural to count on that one out of a hundred that I can not explain(although there are other parts of the Bible I can not explain, it is over my head), rather than the volumes you have no answer for.
As there are parts of the Bible that are hard for you to explain it would seem that, in fact, the Bible is not always simple to understand.

As the Bible states that the sky (a vault; a volume of space) separates the waters above from the waters below, and that the stars are in the sky, and as there is apparently no way to reconcile this with the observed reality of the Earth orbiting the Sun embedded in one of many galaxies of stars with no suggestion whatsoever of any "water above", it would seem that, in fact, the Bible is not accurate in all things that it states.

Those are the two points I would like to make on the topic of this thread.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#14

Post by GregD » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:54 pm

BillyBob66 wrote:
GregD wrote:I won't go with your prophesy "evidence" until this one point is settled. This case is very clear-cut. And it refutes much of what you assert.
Greg, as you might say, this is such total BS. You won't go over to the prophecy section because you know you have no rational explanation, just as you don't for Moses correct health laws.
What I was feeling when I wrote this was that if we cannot come to some understanding on this rather simple and clear example it is hopeless to try to work issues that are more complicated and unclear. It wasn't a demand.

I am not well informed on the Bible prophesies, nor I am well informed on the history they reference and/or predict. Life is short and I don't have much interest in them either.

Also, this is going off-topic.

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Re: God, the Bible and Those Who Wish Science Was Their Friend

#15

Post by dirtwheels » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:39 pm

Why shouldn't a mentor discuss things with folks he was mentoring? Isn't that customary?

You seem to wish to change the subject, why?
GregD wrote: If the Bible were truly easy to understand it would not take a "mentor" to say so.

Please explain exactly what that means and also explain how that meaning is easy to understand from the text.

And then we can see if Bill agrees with your interpretation. If it is simple to understand there should be little room for disagreement.

Finally, compare and contrast THAT meaning what we know to be true about the structure of the Earth, solar system, and galaxy.

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